The use of Elephants

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The use of Elephants

Postby Tiberius Dionysius Draco on Thu Sep 25, 2003 6:38 pm

Salvete Romani,

I read an interesting story today in, my history book about two army's that were fighting each other and one of the army's was Elephants.

In the first battle of this war, the army without elephants was so frightened of these massive beast that in the middle of the battle, most soldiers fled out of fear. So the army with the elephants, won!

However, in the second , the elephantless army had learned from its mistake and brought burning torches with them. The elephants were very frightened by the fire and started stampeding.........towards their own camp :twisted: The elephantless army won the war!

Are there any more of these kind of stories? And were elephants not very dangerous to use if like in this war, it could mean victory or defeat?

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Postby Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Thu Sep 25, 2003 9:09 pm

Salve Tiberii
It is true that the use for animals could lead to victory or defeat, but the same can be said of soldiers. If you don't really have a disciplined army like the Romans did, than you could face defeat through your own soldiers fleeing the battle scene out of fear.
Using elephants can be dangerous in a battle, but which animal, including humans aren't affraid of fire. The only difference is that humans can come up with a way of getting around the fire, the animal will just ran away from it. Using elephants gives an advantage over an army that doesn't have any. Same goes for horses. Everything in war has an advantage and disavantage. That is why war can be unpredictable.
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Postby Marcus Pomponius Lupus on Thu Sep 25, 2003 10:22 pm

Salve Tiberi,

There are two famous campaigns in which elephants were used. The first one is the battle between Alexander the Great and Poros, king of what is now roughly India. The second of course is the campaign of Hannibal, though most elephants were lost during the crossing of the Alpes.

I'm sure that elephants must have been used on more than these two occasions, but I can't think of a specific encounter, what war did you read about in the history book, Tiberi ?

Also, does someone know if elephants have been recorded in battle before the battle between Alexander and Poros (326 BC) ?

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Postby Horatius Piscinus on Fri Sep 26, 2003 11:09 am

Salvete

Lupe mi, you forget your Roman history. The story Tiberius read sounds much like that of the Romans first encounter with elephants in the war with Pyrrhus.

There was something similar that the British experienced, I think in the Sudan. They encountered an Arab force using camels and soon discovered that their horses would not stand for the smell of camels. The British cavalry therefore fled on uncontrolable horses. Later they came back after training the horses to get use to the smell of camels. And now that I think of it, I recall a human version of that story where Americans could not stomach the smell of Viet Cong because of their diet on kim shi, and the Cong did not stomach the scent of Americans (all those deoderants, after shaves and such are a bit alien in the jungles). Both sides got to be able to smell their enemies from miles away and took advantage of it.

In battle the superior trained troops generally win irregardless of numbers or equiptment. A good example is the British at Mons. They were outnumbered, and the Germans had better equiptment, armed with machineguns, but superior training of the British allowed for each soldier to fire his rifle so rapidly that they overcame the German machinegunners and fought a successful delaying action. The applies with the use of any animals in battle. They need to be trained for battle in order to be effective.

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Postby Aulus Dionysius Mencius on Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:58 pm

Salvete omnes

At war with elephants...

Besides the events already described, I have another one to share with you all.

When the Mongols invaded the Persian Empire, they knew they were up against a formidable foe, who had an army the Mongol Wolves only had heard of through the Chinese... Surprise.... war elephants.

At first, the mongols were startled, the cries of the beast alone were enough to frighten the horses and riders, and for a brief moment, the Persian shah had the upper hand. What he didn't took into account, however, was the speed and mobility of the Mongol cavalry, who feigned defeat, luring the elephants in pusuit, and then encircle the isolated elephants to kill them with bow and arrow...

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Postby Aulus Dionysius Mencius on Sat Oct 11, 2003 1:55 pm

Salve, mi Tiberii.

As for now, I am sorry to say that I cannot provide any source material. The event I described was mentioned in the courses on History of Southeast Asia, which I took last year. But I wil look into it.

In the meantime, vale bene, amice.
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Postby Aulus Dionysius Mencius on Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:38 pm

Salvete, mi Tiberii

Those encounters that I spoke of, my friend, took place at 1219-1220.
It concerns the conflict between Genghis and Khwarism.

Genghis, having conquerred the Kara-Kitad Empire, was now a neighbour of the Khwarizmians, situated between the Syr Daria in the north, the Pamirs and the mountains of Waziristan in the east and in the west Azerbajian. The Khwarizmian Turkic Empire, at its height in 1217, comprised Transoxania, nearly all of Afghanistan and the most of Persia. (They are also known as Sarts.)

Genghis wanted a stable relationship with them at first, so he sent envoys to Shah Mohammed. However, they didn't even get to him, as hey were slain by a subordinate of the latter, called Qadir Khan, the ruler of Otrar.

So, Ghenghis prepared for war. And although Mohammed Shah had an overall superiority in numbers, he divided his troops along the Syr Daria line, thus causing his troops to be outnumbered at every point.

It is in this conflict that I was told elepants were used...

However, I looked into it, and none of my sources mention elephants.

Good source material :

Grousset, R. 'The Empire of the Steppes, A History of Central Asia'
I also searched in the Yüan-ch'ao pi-shih, the Chinese version of Mongolian History. To no avail... No elephants in there either.

Now, if these sources do not mention elephants, it remains doubtfull that they were actually used... Could be though, that the Mongols decided not to mention them, since they feared them at first...

Sorry for the dead trail, amice, but since you asked more info on this conflict, I gave it anyway.

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Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:02 pm

Aulus Dionysius Mencius wrote:Salvete, mi Tiberii


Latin police strikes again: as you wrote this, it looks like you are greeting multiple Tiberii (are you drunk?) because "salvete" and "Tiberii" are both plural. However, what you probably mean is "salve mi Tiberi". Your ending, "vale", is correct.

Otherwise an excellent and informative posting mi Menci. Carry on ;).

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Postby Aulus Dionysius Mencius on Mon Jan 12, 2004 11:02 am

Salve amici.

This topic, looked into it, I have...

Where did the Mongols encounter, defeated or were trampled upon by elephants?

Marco Polo gives us a first case. In 1277, the Mongols entered Burma. They had seized the defile of Bhamo, thus opening up to them the valley of the Irrawaddy. Marco states that in this case, the elephants were no match for the archers of Mongolia. They stood at the Burmese capital Pagan in 1287.

Then, we go to the Jagatai Khanate.
In 1304-1305, there was a mongolian incursion into the Punjab area, but here, the Mongols were defeatedby Tughlugh, the lieutenant of Ala-ad-Din... Mongolian prisoners were sent to Delhi to be trampled to death by elephants.

Then, we have the awesome figure of Tamerlane (or Timur Lenk). He went to India after, again, his ambassador had been slain. On December 17, 1398, Tamerlane crossed blades with Sultan Muhmad shah, India's ruler at the time. there were elephants involved: the text Zafer-name III, 100 states that they were no match for the Timurid cavalry " and soon one saw the ground strewn with elephants ' trunks mingled with the bodies and heads of the dead."

Afterwards, Tamerlane focussed on thee Mamelukes, who ruled Egypt and the Levant. In October 1400, he stood at Allepo's gates and defeated the Mamelukes with elephants he had brought with him.

Coruncanius, as a final remark, I would like to counter your argument that Kwarizm territory was unfriendly towards the use of elephants.

Earlier in history, in 1008 to be exact, a battle took place between the Karakhanids and the Ghaznavids. Both sides used elephant batlle groups. Where this all happened? They met at Balkh, a city within the triangle Samarkand-Kabul-Herat, well within what was later to be Kwarizm territory. So you see, elephants were actually used there, although I have to admit that Balkh is situated nearly 450 miles West of the Syr Darya....

Other source material is the World History, written by Rashid-al-Din.
Now, I will reign in a bit...

Vale bene, amici.
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Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Mon Jan 12, 2004 4:05 pm

Once again these are just small pedantic notes. 8)

1. Why do you speak like Yoda, Menci? :p
2. Since amici is plural, it should be "salvete" and "valete"! :p

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Postby Aulus Dionysius Mencius on Mon Jan 12, 2004 5:20 pm

Greetings, Gnae...

I just try to keep the Latin Inquisition busy, so he would overlook crimes committed by my fellow Romans. I can take a beating...

Why do I speak like Yoda? Childhood sentiment, perhaps. In any case, I am entitled to say that, sinc A) I did look into it and B) the Svr strongly believes in freedom of speech, nonne? :wink:

But correction is usefull, so thanx anyway!

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Postby Aulus Dionysius Mencius on Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:10 pm

Salvete iterum, mi Tiberi

There are several comments that come to mind. First of all, I agree that Timur must have been impressed by the elephants. Proof is that he used elephants himself at Aleppo in 1400, as I suggested earlier.

The location of Balkh, then. Stating that it was situated to the West of Kwarism was a lapsus, what was I thinking :roll:.

When we look at history, Balkh was an area that has known different rulers, as you know. In 500 AD, the city was already part of one of the first 'Mongol' empires, the Ephithalite Empire to be more precise. Balkh was the starting point for the Ephithalite raids in the Sassanid Empire.

At around 1094, it was part of the Seldjuk Sultanate, in an Eastern corridor between the Gaznavid Sultanate and the Kharakhanid Khanates.

At the point that is of interest, the early 13th century, it was indeed located in the East of Kwarism territory. Southeast of Balkh, you then had the Ghorid Sultanate.

Indeed, there is much to be said about the Orient, and I only know so little to say. Especially when it comes to Oriental-Roman interaction. Reminds me of a private discussion I had some time ago with one of our sodales, Ambrosius Celetrus,about Romans building, or assisting in the proces, of the Bamiyan buddhas. Most interesting, because we did not agree. He thought it was a valid assumption, and I did not. (And I still don't!) :wink: And from that point, I was once again struck by the fact that history is interpretation.

iubeo aliquem valere,

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Postby Aulus Dionysius Mencius on Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:49 pm

Salvete iterum, mi Tiberi!

Yes, I agree that it is nice to talk about the subject...

First, would you care to give me the details of your elusive source? The more sources I have, he merrier.

My sources, then. Most of my sources are related to China and/or Buddhism. But for a general introduction into the history of th region, I strongly recommend Grousset, R. 'The Empire of the Steppes, A History of Central Asia', of which I spoke earlier.

Other sources on Central Asia 5th-8th centuries:

Another general history:

Gabain, Annemarie von, Einfuhrung in die Zentralasienkunde, Darmstadt, Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft, 1979

History of Civilisations of Central Asia, Paris, Unesco
4 parts so far, of which the most interesting for your time frame, are:

part II,The development of nomadic and sedentaric Civilisations: 700Bc to 250AD. 1994

part III, The crossroads of Civilisations: AD 250 to 750. 1996

These are a few of the best.

Vale bene, and enjoy the read.

I have more sources, but they are more specialised in the history of different religions of the area. But if you'd wish, I can give more later.

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Postby Aulus Dionysius Mencius on Sat Jul 17, 2004 10:13 am

Salve

As for now, the only source that I can think of:

Bretschneider, E. Medieval Researches from Eastern Asiatic Sources: 1888

This is a valuable collection of source material in English translation. Might be hard to find, I know... But it 'll be worth the trouble, I think.
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Postby Aulus Dionysius Mencius on Sat Jul 17, 2004 10:26 am

Salvete iterum

About the Shahnameh... I am not familiar with the work, amice. Same goes for Manicheistic sources. sorry :oops:

There are Persian sources that I could mention, but they describe later times... Should you be interested, look into the works of the big 4: Rashid-al-Din, Guvaini, Guzgani and Wassaf. The first two (and their partly translations, for which I can refer to Boyle, J.A) will be easier to find than the latter, but for completion, I gave them anyway.

That's all, folks.

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