[Concilium] Comitia, Magistratus & Senatus

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[Concilium] Comitia, Magistratus & Senatus

Postby Quintus Pomponius Atticus on Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:22 pm

Salvete omnes,

In this topic, I wish to open a discussion on the "core issues" we should, as has been said, focus upon first, instead of dealing with minor issues (e.g. the census) at the beginning of our term as a concilium.

I think there’s a general consensus among the members of this concilium that SVR's current administrative apparatus is much too heavy and complicated for an online community of our size, and that we need to simplify that structure radically to keep it workable.

Below, I have copy-pasted the comments (sometimes abbreviated using '...') posted on this subject in the Comitia (‘Ideas for a better SVR’) before this concilium was convoked. I have tried as much as I can to regroup the comments in a few separate categories, although the chunk of text below may seem a bit chaotic at first (and even at second) sight.

I suggest we all read through this stack of ideas again, reconsider our opinions, and then try to reach an agreement on the issues to deal with.

Valete,

Atticus

IDEAS FOR A BETTER SVR

Consul and aediles

*Q. Pomponius Atticus : Cut back magistracies, but keep the basics : 1 censor, 1 consul, 1 aedilis, 2 rogatores.

*Marius Peregrine: I think we should keep the two Aediles; indeed, I'd field four of 'em if we could find 'em.

*Q. Aurelius Orcus : Well this isn't a bad idea with the exception of the Aedilles. We do need 2 Aedilles. We need to keep this site running and I doubt one would suffice in that matter. I do think that we need 2 consuls as well. If anyone in the near future accusses a consul for let's say malpractice, the other one can look in on it, to see if nothign went wrong.

*Q. Pomponius, Atticus : Allow me to refine my suggestion. We could have 1 elected aedilis, who is in charge of the webpages of SVR, and an optional scriba appointed by him to do some delegated work. The veto-right against consular decisions, I would - as I mentioned in my previous posting -transfer to the Comitia as a whole, where members could post an interpellation against a decision by a magistrate and ask to put it to a vote. This would make SVR more democratic, and it would take away the restriction that only one person, the other consul (who could be inactive, or refuse to defend the membership’s wish) can veto a decision of his colleague.

*Ti. Coruncanius : … I think SVR ought to consider how the majority of websites and web-based communities are run. Most websites have an administrator or administrators who see to the sites technical issues….Many topic list sites like the Forum here at SVR have moderators or experts; two or three individuals who donate their time to oversee discussions on some of the lists, offer advice and generally keep members and visitors happy and if need be, in line – call these Aediles or Prefects if you will….I won’t offer any specifics here but I wonder if terms of service should be left up to the members who serve as admins and moderators ..One thing I do believe is that if we opt for some sort of co-opted leadership, it might prove more stable in the long run however as a word of warning, I think this system would yield dividends for SVR if and only if the members at large agree on a very strict mandate, or regula if you prefer - that instructs and authorizes the administrators to carry out only their duties and adhere to SVR policy in a specific way and forbid them any deviations from that policy. Such measures would both insure SVR’s independence and safeguard individual members. Timely elections would be the other option for a governing body for SVR, however, many of you have already mentioned that this does not always guarantee that you will get a magistrate who will attend to their duties…

*Horatius Piscinus : I would like to see us go back to making the collegia central to our organizational structure and define clearly what duties the rectores will have in each of their collegia. I do not think they should be elected annually. From among the rectores two may be chosen as curiones. A major problem for SVR has been to find and keep someone to act as our webmaster, and this has only been complicated by making that be an annually elected position. The rectores could simply appoint a qualified person to that position, replacing him or her as needed. Another problem has been the burden of the duties of censores placed on two individuals, where the rectores might act together and share those responsibilities.

*Primus Aurelius Tergestus : The Rectores would form the Senate and would appoint a single Consul. The Consul could be one of the Rectores or another individual chosen by them (in the latter case he would be an ex-officio member of the Senate). He would be the sole individual invested with auctoritas, and he would have the power to mete out any punishments, including permanent expulsion, as he sees fit. Yet he would serve at the pleasure of the Senate, his decrees could be overturned by the Senate, and any individual would have the right of provocatio to the Senate. The Consul could appoint Censores, Aediles, Scriba, and even Praetores to assist him, but these offices would have no power in themselves (e.g. The Consul could appoint a Praetor to investigate an alleged offensive posting, but the Praetor could only present his findings to the Consul for his action without taking any action on his own.

Praetores

*Q. Pomponius Atticus : Remove the senate, the praetores, the magister morum and the quaestores.

*Q. Aurelius Orcus : I'm not sure that removing the senate and the praetores is a good thing. De Praetores are there to keep the peace and the senate is needed to make decisions. I say keep the senate and the praetores.

*Q. Pomponius Atticus : Fortunately perhaps, SVR in its history has never known a conflict in which its praetores had to intervene. If this would arise in the future, I'm sure the Comitia can handle this by itself and, if really necessary, appoint an ad hoc ‘court’ presided by the consul and with the membership as a jury.

*Horatius Piscinus : The Comitia itself, the sodales assembled as a sodalitas, can fulfill the duties of all these offices.

Elections

*Q. Pomponius Atticus : Organise elections once every two years.

* Marius Peregrine : I like it; we need stability, especially on the Rectorial side of the house. Any really ambitious project is going to need time to get airborne.

*Q. Aurelius Orcus : Perhaps what we need are no more annual elections. Perhaps elections every 2-3 years or 4 years? ...If we can't find anyone to take the post as rogator, we could scrap it all together and do it like in the real world where people are called upon to count the votes during the election day

*Horatius Piscinus : Very well. I don't think we need annual elections. Make it so that curiones can run as often as they want. If they are not doing the job, then vote them out.

Comitia and Senatus

*Q. Pomponius Atticus : Remove the senate, the praetores, the magister morum and the quaestores.The role of the removed instances and the veto-right against the magistratus sine collega to be transfered to the Comitia.

*Marius Peregrine : Ah. So *that's* what we do without a Senate. Hmm...

*Horatius Piscinus : Agreed. This is a sodalitas. Start thinking in terms of SVR acting as a sodalitas of all its members.

*Ti. Coruncanius : As for members' voice in the administration of SVR, I think this is not as hot-button an issue anymore if we face the fact that SVR doesn't need a "government" that could "enact" measures that some members would object to. Instead, if seen as a website and its need for moderators and admins who simply perform their mandated duties, the idea that must have a "we the people" who need to hold the elected magistrated accountable is somewhat pointless. If we want some sort of voting body or rostrum for members to discuss policies and administration ideas, sure we can have one of those. I guess I see this as more of a club or organization of friends and I think like most clubs, we can just hold a mandated meeting now and then, every quarter, every month or whatever cycle you like. At that meeting, the Administrators and moderators can ask members for input or ideas. The floor can be opened for motions and any voting can just happen there by posting yea or nay. Simple enough.

*Primus Aurelius Tergestus : This structure would eliminate the orders, familiae, gentes, provinces, and even the comitia (pace Mari)… Yet he [the consul] would serve at the pleasure of the Senate, his decrees could be overturned by the Senate, and any individual would have the right of provocatio to the Senate

Familiae, gentes and provinciae

*Q. Pomponius Atticus : Remove familiae, gentes and provincia.

*Marius Peregrine : Familiae and gentes need to go; I've been saying so for years. But I think a role could be found for Provinciae; granted, we have only one at present, but as the numbers and geographical spread of our members increase, we may need to form Provinciae in other places.

*Quintus Aurelius Orcus : I think we should keep this as optional. If a group of people decides to form a familiae or a gente or a province, than they should be given the option to do so. We have seen in the past, that this didn't work with a number of people, but this does not mean it can't work. I think that this should be optional.

*Q. Pomponius Atticus : We could keep open the possibility, but after four years of SVR, I simply observe that nothing has happened with it

*Horatius Piscinus : Definitely. There has never been any need for these in SVR.

*Primus Aurelius Tergestus : This structure would eliminate the orders, familiae, gentes, provinces, and even the comitia (pace Mari).

Collegia

*Q. Pomponius Atticus : Keep the collegia as they are now (four in number), each with 1 rector elected for two years, at the same time as the magistrates. A magistracy and a rectorship can be combined.

*Marius Peregrine : I would like, as a minimum, to see the Collegium Philosophicum stand on its own two feet again; it looks a little awkward where it is, all jumbled together with Arts and Sciences. If it must have a roommate, could we pair it with the Collegium Religionis? --These two at least have the common feature that they are there to help us Think Large Thoughts. I would also like to see the Collegium Vitae Quotidianae reestablished. (I will even stand for the Rectorship.) We need much more information about Roman daily life on this Board, and it doesn't really fit anywhere else. This would give us five Collegia, if CollPhil moves in with CollRel instead of striking out on its own. Is this acceptable...? I'll also take this opportunity to publicly rescind the Great Big Noisy Fuss I raised about consolidating the Collegium Militarium with the Historicum; the military topics there seem to be doing quite well. They are in capable hands!

*Quintus Aurelius Orcus : A good idea. Like Marius, I would like to see col philosophicum to stand on its two feet again. It seems like philosophy has not been discussed there anymore. Either we make sure it stands on its two feet again or we put it together with col. religionis, since the two do have alot in common.

*Q. Pomponius Atticus : We could talk again about the composition of our collegia. Having philosophy apart from arts and sciences again is in a defensible idea. Nevertheless, I don’t think we should go back to the old system again with 8 collegia and as many rectores.

*Horatius Piscinus : Define what are the duties of a rector and make them perform the duties. Let us not have just empty titles here.

*Ti. Coruncanius : Another concern voiced already is that of the fate of the Collegia. We went from more to less and the result was less than certain. We didn’t have as much activity in the condensed Collegia as we did in the expanded Collegia the year before however I would be hard pressed to say this was because of the structure of the Collegia itself. There were several factors for the lack of activity here at SVR’s Collegia and I don’t believe the restructuring was a major reason. That said, we probably could reorganize them once more since it was and probably will be cited as a reason for people’s lack of participation this past year. Still I think less is more with the Collegia too. These are the basic topics of discussion in the Forum and I think each one requires at least one moderator, how many moderators can we have or should we have? I personally believe no less than two and no more than four although I understand that many might want more. I think moderators of the collegia can suffice and manage the collegia nicely. How many Collegia, is up in the air and again I think we should go with some number from four to seven any more, I think would be too crowded and likely double up on another Collegia's functions.

*Primus Aurelius Tergestus : Sodales would sign up as members of the particular collegia that interest them. The Sodales in each College would elect a Rector for two years.

*Curio Agelastus : I agree with most of what had been said here. However, many people seem keen on keeping the Rectores, which is understandable. If such is the case, would it be an idea to have a small group - perhaps between two and four, as has already been suggested - of Rectores, rather than have one Rector tied to each Collegium? That way, we could have a permanent "Concilium" if you will, of Rectores whose job was to attempt to stimulate activity in all the Collegia? If not, then I think Rectores should not be in place at all, since they have not really worked in their currently ill-defined capacity; and I speak as a Rector who has been entirely unsuccessful in stimulating activity, or even in maintaining personal activity. Therefore we also need to consider the role of the Rectores in all this.

*Horatius Piscinus : I think the problem we have had with the rectores is that we never did spell out what we wanted them to do. They were needed in the beginning when there was more to a collegium. Each collegium had its own moderator and webmaster. The rector was to head the collegium, direct the other collegial officials, lead discussions in his or her respective collegium, had some say over approving articles for the website of his or her respective collegium and so on. Most of the duties of rectors were withdrawn along with the other collegial offices, so all that remained was for the rectors to lead discussions. That role can actually be filled by any sodalis who is willing to take the initiative to start a topic of discussion.

If we want to go back to having the collegia central to our organizational structure, then I think we should also reconsider this original idea of the function of the rectores (curatores/curatrices or curiones). A concilium of curatores sounds good to me. Keep their number few, and we do not really need there to be one curator maximus /curatrix maxima but we could if the sodales so decide. Give this concilium the authority to appoint and dismiss other officials as we may need (webmaster, rogatores etc.) for however long we may need, and as they appoint they will also define the duties of such officers and set any limitation of time that the office will be held. Let them remain curatores for however long they are willing to hold the position. We should give the sodales the opportunity to recall curatores should a need arise. When a vacancy arises through one means or another, then the sodales can vote to elect a new curator, and that would be the only elections we need have in SVR.

In selecting curatores/curatrices we should keep in mind that their function is primarily to maintain the fora and website. They therefore need to have the skills and available time to fulfill such duties. Other duties, such as a rector to lead discussions in a collegium or to conduct a symposium, could be appointed by the curatores/curatrices. Even a moderator, although the curatores/curatrices would be mainly responsible, could be appointed as an assistant to the concilium. In order to function well, the curatores/curatrices are going to have to people who can handle the technical side of maintaining SVR, and that is a qualification that should be written into the new Regula.

So in deciding what our curatores/curatrices will be, we need to decide what will be their duties, and what will be required as qualifications to hold such offices.

*Primus Aurelius Tergestus : I'm a little wary of so much decentralization. After all, there are matters of import to the Societas as a whole. For example, how would one go about proposing the creation of a new collegium?

*Q. Aurelius Orcus : I have to side with Tergeste on this one. Decentralisation is a good thing, but too much can cripple it. I think the head of each collegium should not be recomended to be a webmaster or have any skills in that departement. That is why we need the Aedilles. They are the person(s) to build and maintain the site. We should keep these seperate to make sure that not one person control everything in SVR concerning what is to be put on the site and what not.
Last edited by Quintus Pomponius Atticus on Sat Aug 20, 2005 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Horatius Piscinus on Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:36 am

Salvete

Simple structure - three to five curators to do all the functions necessary for running this place. And anything they can't do themselves, they can appoint someone else to do it. Hold elections only when one resigns, disappears, or is tossed for misconduct.

We do not need to distinguish between the curators by their having different titles. Just put in people who will do the work and do it collectively. It's like a board of administrators and that is all we need. What has bogged down the Senate is trying to run elections, finding candidates, trying to see problems where none existed. SVR did well enough on its own without any administrative meddling. All the board of curators has to do is keep the fora and website up and running smoothly for the sodales to use, and the sodales will do the rest. Dont bog down the curators with so many worries and they can participate as well.
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Postby Quintus Pomponius Atticus on Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:23 am

Salve Horati,

I'm inclining towards your simple, transparent and flexible solution, now that I re-read the suggestions for a better SVR.

However, I do think we should stick to bi-annual elections of curatores to prevent an official oligarchy to be formed.

I am reconsidering my position on the rectores as well. Perhaps we could indeed do away with them. As you say : "Most of the duties of rectors were withdrawn along with the other collegial offices, so all that remained was for the rectors to lead discussions. That role can actually be filled by any sodalis who is willing to take the initiative to start a topic of discussion" (which has, de facto, been our situation for years now).

Having done away with the obligation to find a rector for each collegium, there would also be no hinderance in having the collegium philosophicum and vitae quotidianae re-established.

Vale,

Atticus
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Postby Horatius Piscinus on Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:47 pm

Salvete Attice et sodales omnes
Quintus Pomponius Atticus wrote:
Having done away with the obligation to find a rector for each collegium, there would also be no hinderance in having the collegium philosophicum and vitae quotidianae re-established.


Agreed and I would much prefer we did reestablish fora for these collegia, and could also establish some others that had been discussed in the past. Let the sodales decide how to use the fora for their own interests.

The curators could still name rectores, in recognition of people who took on the role of discussion leaders. They could name people to our Latin Inquisition! Honorary titles in recognition of personalities we have in SVR, or recognition of those who serve in some capacity, like some title for whoever they appoint as our webmaster. But such titles do not have to be part of our actual adminstrative organization. Allow the curatores to be flexible in how they administer SVR.

If we are going to elect curatores, then I suggest we stagger their terms, so that these overlap.

Valete
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Postby Quintus Pomponius Atticus on Sat Aug 20, 2005 7:49 pm

Salvete Horati aliique,

I entirely agree. Bigness and rigidness is what ruined SVR's current administrative system. Smallness and flexibility should be the qualities of the new system we're trying to develop, and your suggestion, i.m.o., provides an elegant basis that has them both.

Valete,

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Postby Marcus Pomponius Lupus on Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:28 am

Salvete,

I fully agree, the svr should be about its fora and discussions, its website and what has been submitted to it. Elaborate elections like we had in the past usually caused a lot of trouble because of a lack of candidates or voters. A small group of people, a board of administrators, sounds good. Would you give them carte blanche ? Or make them submit anything that constitutes a big change to the comitia/the membership ?

Valete bene
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Postby Horatius Piscinus on Sun Aug 21, 2005 5:15 am

Salvete Lupe et sodales omnes

We have tried to run SVR thus far through consensus in the Senate. By having a board of administrators I think we would in some way be institutionalizing that method of management. It therefore does not bother me to give the board as much leeway as possible in making decisions for SVR. They are to administer the website, act as an editorial board for contributions to the website, moderate the fora, and manage membership issues.

When the curators would be unable to come to a consensus, any one of them could bring a matter before the Comitia to consider. In the past, even when we did have consensus in the Senate, some issues were thought too important not to consult with the membership. The Comitia of all sodales would remain the final authority on any major changes to SVR - such as in the case of deciding to switch servers or adopting a major change to the format for our fora. So the board of administrators would not have complete discretionary authority over everything in SVR, but would in effect have carte blanche in managing daily operations of SVR. And they would be answerable to the Comitia for any decisions they would make.

Valete optime
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Postby Quintus Pomponius Atticus on Sun Aug 21, 2005 8:36 am

Salvete,

I think that any well-disposed board of administrators would normally submit great changes to the Comitia on their own initiative, though I would also state formally in our new regula that the administrators must announce all their non-routine decisions to the Comitia and that the Comitia has the authority to repeal any of the administrators' decisions by putting it to a vote.

Valete,

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Postby Curio Agelastus on Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:29 pm

Salvete,

So it would effectively be a carte blanche, since it would be purely up to the curator to decide whether to go to the comitia or not?

I like this proposal, though I'd be inclined to include a suggested code of some sort, not to circumscribe the powers of the administrators but to give them some guidelines. Otherwise we could end in a similar situation to the one we have now with the rectores, where a set of people are uncertain what it is they're supposed to be doing...

Bene valete,
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Postby Quintus Pomponius Atticus on Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:20 pm

Curio Agelastus wrote:Salvete,

So it would effectively be a carte blanche, since it would be purely up to the curator to decide whether to go to the comitia or not?

I like this proposal, though I'd be inclined to include a suggested code of some sort, not to circumscribe the powers of the administrators but to give them some guidelines. Otherwise we could end in a similar situation to the one we have now with the rectores, where a set of people are uncertain what it is they're supposed to be doing...

Bene valete,
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In my proposal, the curatores (or whatever we're going to call them) would be obliged to report their decisions to the Comitia, where they can be vetoed by the members (with a normal 50%+ majority).

Circumscribing the powers of the administrators would indeed be part of the plan. E.g., the basic rules concerning the interaction between the curatores and the Comitia, discussed above, would be an important element to point out clearly in the new regulae.

Vale,

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Postby Primus Aurelius Timavus on Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:47 pm

Under this developing proposal, who would enjoy auctoritas? I other words, who could speak for the Societas - any curator?

I would also be concerned that there must be a mechanism for the Comitia to recall any curator or maybe even the whole slate through a vote of no confidence.

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Postby Quintus Pomponius Atticus on Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:04 pm

Primus Aurelius Tergestus wrote:Under this developing proposal, who would enjoy auctoritas? I other words, who could speak for the Societas - any curator?

I would also be concerned that there must be a mechanism for the Comitia to recall any curator or maybe even the whole slate through a vote of no confidence.

Tergestus


1. I'd say : yes, any curator.

2 : Absolutely !

Vale,

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Postby Horatius Piscinus on Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:18 am

Salvete

Same by me as Atticus. Any curator. Provision for the Comitia to recall any or all curatores. And a provision that the curatores must announce their decisions to the Comitia. Our Comitia forum would then become a kind of internal announcement board, which would get more use from it than has been so far.

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Postby Primus Aurelius Timavus on Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:12 am

The Comitia should be more than an announcement board. Sodales should be able to suggest ideas and vote on them independent of (and superior to) the Concilium of Curatores. I'm getting a little uncomfortable with this idea of philospher kings deciding everything...
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Postby Quintus Pomponius Atticus on Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:23 am

Primus Aurelius Tergestus wrote:The Comitia should be more than an announcement board. Sodales should be able to suggest ideas and vote on them independent of (and superior to) the Concilium of Curatores. I'm getting a little uncomfortable with this idea of philospher kings deciding everything...


We could implement that prerogative, yes. Although I haven't seen any measures proposed by a non-elected sodalis in the Comitia in our four year history, I think it should at least remain a possibility.

Vale,

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Postby Q Valerius on Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:28 am

Primus Aurelius Tergestus wrote:The Comitia should be more than an announcement board. Sodales should be able to suggest ideas and vote on them independent of (and superior to) the Concilium of Curatores. I'm getting a little uncomfortable with this idea of philospher kings deciding everything...

I don't think much of this is necessary. If the people have suggestions, let them suggest. But I thought we were moving back towards a web-community instead of bureaucratic regime...
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Postby Primus Aurelius Timavus on Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:00 am

Exactly. Being a community means that decisions are ultimately made by all sodales. If we don't have these recall and override mechanisms there will be no accountability of the Curatores to the sodales.
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Postby Quintus Pomponius Atticus on Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:44 am

Surely, the Comitia should be able to override decisions of the curatores, recall them, or suggest measures to be voted.

But I do think we need a small group of people who can handle daily business in a flexible way; I would call them 'functionaries' rather than 'magistrates', to point out the difference with our current system. If you call this a bureaucracy, mi Scerio, then every organisation, from a cycling club (which has its secretary, treasurer, etc.) to a large corporation, is 'bureaucratic', and I think no organisation could work without it.

Apart from that, one can see that in almost all sorts of organisations, it is usually a small group of people, mostly those with official charges, who take on the lead in proposing new measures. I really hope S.V.R. could depart from that pattern in the future, but, naturally we cannot stimulate 'spontaneous' activity in the Comitia in any way...

Therefore, while explicitly leaving open and encouraging the possibility for the Comitia to take new initiatives, we should also be realistic and at least anticipate on its taking a 'passive' role in most instances, i.c. discussing the issues the administrators present in the Comitia, with the possibility of vetoing their plans or recalling them from office.

Valete,

Atticus
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Postby Q Valerius on Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:27 pm

Sure, we can have a small group of forum moderators and maybe a couple of administrators, by any name, but no more.
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