Expats from Nova Roma

Salvete, new amici; tell us a bit about yourselves! But this is no ordinary Intro forum; you will learn quite a bit about the rest of us too. >({|:-)

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Re: Expats from Nova Roma

Postby Annia Minucia Marcella on Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:43 pm

I left because Nova Roma can't defend itself against people that threaten to sue them. That was the straw. I tried to stick it out as long as I could but it just isn't worth it. A few months ago I actually declared "being in nova roma isn't fun anymore" to a fellow citizen. I get absolutely no enjoyment out of it, just more frustration and disgust.

I was going to leave earlier after they decided to bribe Marcus Cassius with $500 to make he doesn't sue them last december, but a few convinced me to stay. Plus I had just been elected Diribitor and I actually wanted to do the job.

But alas, I really can't deal with those people anymore. Nova Roma literally makes me ill. If I had stayed I would've turned in to one of the many hopelessly jaded curmudgeons that hang out on the back alley.

I joined Nova Roma because I am a follower of the Ancient Roman religion, that's it. I've come to the decision that I do not need to be in Nova Roma to practice my faith. Therefore Nova Roma is not only destructive to me, it's also asinine.

I feel sorry for those of you who are still in Nova Roma. I hope you have a better time than I did.
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Re: Expats from Nova Roma

Postby Aldus Marius on Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:38 am

Salve, mi Minucia,

I actually had a fairly decent civil-rights case (discrimination on the basis of gender identity) against them in the works my last year there. Shenanigans included being 'outed' in a chatroom by hostile parties, two years of non-stop harrassment, and a request by the Censor (dear, dear Sulla ipse) to see my VA medical and psychiatric records. If NR had had a legal system back then, I could have claimed iniuria, as their treatment of me was a 'precipitating factor' for my psychiatric episode (id est, one leading directly to the breakdown). Come to think of it, I could have sued for emotional and physical damages in the macronational realm too. (I did sustain a degree of actual, organic brain impairment.)

All because they took themselves so damn seriously, and I did too. They just don't realise what they do to people over there. One must be very, very careful to whom one entrusts a matter of the soul. Our passions, our visions of Rome restored, our efforts towards Romanitas, which for many of us are a spiritual odyssey--these need to be handled with care and respect. They are not handles for yanking people around, they are not things to be toyed with.

I was, once upon a time when I still believed, going to acquire land through the Texas Veteran's Land Board. I was going to hold it for the necessary three years prior to transfer, and then donate it--27 productive acres near Wichita Falls, with a lake and a barn that could be converted into a basilica--to Nova Roma. Nothing like the pitiful little brush-patch they claimed later, which has become an embarrassment even to the Senate. As I said, they have no idea what they do to people.

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Re: Expats from Nova Roma

Postby Marcus Lupinius Paulus on Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:35 am

Salvete Omnes!

I apologise for being rather derelict in my duties. A curator is supposed to be a greeter, and I have not ventured into this area of the forum much lately. So please accept my elated 'Welcome' Marcella.

I'm aware there are several people who maintain membership in both groups. But have you ever noticed the water seems to flow in one direction? You will find people here who are NR expats, but how many people are there in NR who are ex-SVR members?

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Re: Expats from Nova Roma

Postby Annia Minucia Marcella on Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:43 pm

LOL, yea good point.
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In all fairness...

Postby Aldus Marius on Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:21 am

Salvete magistri! (Aww, take the compliment, you're both smarter than me!)

In all fairness, though, we do have dual members who spend much more of their time 'over there' than 'over here'. We don't provide anything quite like the Roman-by-immersion feel of Nova Roma. As to what they immerse Romans *in*, welll...I won't talk like that in front of a Lady! >({|;-)

Leviter (and Nova Roma never could take a joke),
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Re: Expats from Nova Roma

Postby Livia Anastasia on Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:59 am

I am still a member of NR and I still vote but haven't participated much. For one, anytime I ever venture into the email lists I land right in the middle of some massive battle - or perhaps, it's been just one years long campaign of sorts. There is more in-fighting in that group than in all of Rome in her glory days. It's very off putting.

I had found this place quite some time ago as a bit of fresh air to the atmosphere NR had. I just got a friendly 'where have you been' email reminder that I hadn't been on the site for some time and just joined the forum today.

My vision of Nova Roma was a place where people that were like-minded could be and participate in events. That's not what it is. It's a online massive gripe fest. Which is sad because it could be so much more.

I'm also a member of the SCA and recreate a Roman/Greek persona. At least there I get to live out my passion. I fight in Roman-style armor (though not 100% accurate due to the way we fight), there are camping events (even if you are standing beside people spanning several centuries).

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Re: Expats from Nova Roma

Postby Valerius Claudius Iohanes on Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:37 am

Salve, Livia Anastasia -

Greetings - so nice to have you aboard.

You mention events, presumably in Oregon since your info shows you there. I reside in California, with family in Oregon I visit as often as I can. I guess I should check the web for Oregon SCA events; most of the Roman events we get wind of are happening accross the Rockies, to the East, and a bit far for me to travel. Events in Oregon might be manageable.

Bene vale!
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Re: Expats from Nova Roma

Postby Q Valerius on Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:44 pm

Marcus Lupinius Paulus wrote:Salvete Omnes!

I apologise for being rather derelict in my duties. A curator is supposed to be a greeter, and I have not ventured into this area of the forum much lately. So please accept my elated 'Welcome' Marcella.

I'm aware there are several people who maintain membership in both groups. But have you ever noticed the water seems to flow in one direction? You will find people here who are NR expats, but how many people are there in NR who are ex-SVR members?

Marcus Lupinius Paulus


Q. Poplicola M. Paulo sal.

I'm not necessarily an ex-pat per se, but I'm definitely more active there now than here, and I started here.

Bene vale.
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Re: Expats from Nova Roma

Postby Valerius Claudius Iohanes on Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:25 am

Salve, Poplicole - Nice to see you still can find the time to drop in here. Vale bene.
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Re: Expats from Nova Roma

Postby Q Valerius on Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:52 am

Valerius Claudius Iohanes wrote:Salve, Poplicole - Nice to see you still can find the time to drop in here. Vale bene.


Poplicola in vocativo est "Poplicola" non "Poplicole". And I stop by time and time again, mostly reading the various threads here. I'm not a huge RP fan, so there's not so much here I can talk about anymore.
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Re: Expats from Nova Roma

Postby UrsusofUNRV on Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:03 pm

When I first became a classical polytheist, I joined Nova Roma to network with others on the same path. I didn't like what I saw and quickly left.

I can't take the idea of micro-nations seriously. I live in a modern day country, and for better or for worse I have to practice my civic duties under its aegis. America is not perfect but I'll take over some fantasy world of arguments on internet lists.

I do not believe a resurrected Roman state is possible or even desirable. The Republic had serious problems facing the world of first century BCE, which is why it fell ... so how much more ill suited is it for the 21st century CE?

I believe separation of church and state is a cornerstone of civic freedom. There should be no state religions, even if it is a religion with which I greatly sympathize. I have known Christians, Jews and Agnostics who exemplify Romanatis, and the idea they should have to pay lip service to a religion they don't practice is insulting.

I think any organization for cultural polytheism has to look beyond the civic religions of antiquity and promote the familial based level of religion. I belong to a polytheist organization, but it is one that wants to bring classical paganism into the modern world, not shove the modern world back into classical paganism.

No offense to any members of Nova Roma, but I simply do not agree with its goals or methods.
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Re: Expats from Nova Roma

Postby Valerius Claudius Iohanes on Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:56 pm

Salve iterum, Urse -

I agree with many of your points. Although I have yet to apply for citizenship over at NR, I do follow their main list with interests of several sorts.

Ursus wrote:I can't take the idea of micro-nations seriously. I live in a modern day country, and for better or for worse I have to practice my civic duties under its aegis. America is not perfect but I'll take over some fantasy world of arguments on internet lists.


Important point. How can a micro-nation exist? Only as (a) an underground organization, hidden and subversive, or (b) as a 'second nation', which is to say a sodality or minority within the de facto state.

I do not believe a resurrected Roman state is possible or even desirable. The Republic had serious problems facing the world of first century BCE, which is why it fell ... so how much more ill suited is it for the 21st century CE?


Imporant points. While the Novaromans keep ancient and Republican Rome as their touchpoint for their dreams and practices, they admit explicitly that some Roman traits cannot be practical or desireable now, and implicitly are always de facto involved in revising and redressing the Republic's undesirable traits in their re-creation. Plainly, a new Rome will not be the Rome they envision. Nor can the historical fact of Italian fascism fail to be a constant reminder of how an admiration of winners from another time can go wrong.

I believe separation of church and state is a cornerstone of civic freedom. There should be no state religions, even if it is a religion with which I greatly sympathize. I have known Christians, Jews and Agnostics who exemplify Romanatis, and the idea they should have to pay lip service to a religion they don't practice is insulting.


The claim of the Religio to being a tolerant religion does seem, to me, largely merited. That being so, and being a religion more of ritus than fides, and more earthly than eschatological, I see no great issues in it being an organ of the state. The points would be: it is a religion practiced with a view to universality and inclusiveness, as opposed to jealous exclusiveness; it would be, as it were, Caesar's religion more than any one God's religion, if you catch my drift. But once the tolerant attitude of the Religio is lost, then it is become a specfic sect as opposed to a unversal resource.

I think any organization for cultural polytheism has to look beyond the civic religions of antiquity and promote the familial based level of religion. I belong to a polytheist organization, but it is one that wants to bring classical paganism into the modern world, not shove the modern world back into classical paganism.


Can you expand a bit on your notion of "the familial based level of religion" - your focus is on the lares and penates and cult of family? I'd be interested to hear. In any event, thanks for bringing this up.

Vale iterum.
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Re: Expats from Nova Roma

Postby UrsusofUNRV on Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:38 pm

Salve!

Important point. How can a micro-nation exist? Only as (a) an underground organization, hidden and subversive, or (b) as a 'second nation', which is to say a sodality or minority within the de facto state.


I'm not sure why micro-nations should exist at all, really, except as pure fantasy.

Everyone has to work with and within their modern day societies whether they like it or not. The only alternative is secession.


Can you expand a bit on your notion of "the familial based level of religion" - your focus is on the lares and penates and cult of family? I'd be interested to hear. In any event, thanks for bringing this up.


Certainly. :D In the privacy of my own home, before my domestic shrine, I honor my familial spirits as well as the deities that are meaningful to me. I belong to an organization of Roman, Hellenic and Egyptian polytheists who promote worship of the gods. Some, such as myself, practice in solitude, while others live close enough to each other to gather in small groups. But we don't pretend to be any sort of State or civic organization recreated from the ancient world. We' re simply a voluntarily association of individuals trying to find ways to bring classical polytheism back into the world without a need for resurrecting Iron Age political and social institutions.

edit: here is the link to my organization: http://www.neosalexandria.org/principles.htm http://www.neosalexandria.org/faq.htm
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Re: Expats from Nova Roma

Postby Valerius Claudius Iohanes on Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:03 am

Thanks for the expatiation and for the link! A new Alexandria - an uplifting idea.
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Re: Expats from Nova Roma

Postby Q Valerius on Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:46 am

Valerius Claudius Iohanes wrote:Important point. How can a micro-nation exist? Only as (a) an underground organization, hidden and subversive, or (b) as a 'second nation', which is to say a sodality or minority within the de facto state.

Originally what Cassius the Founder had in mind was something akin to what the Vatican has going, a sacred space for administration of the Religio Romana.
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Re: Expats from Nova Roma

Postby Marcus Lupinius Paulus on Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:26 pm

Well, NR's original declaration declared NR to be a "soveriegn" and "independent" nation. {This is a group which cannot even get independent from Yahoo mailing lists}
It claimed a piece of land similar to the size of the vatican to administer this "nation".

Remember that the Vatican is headquarters to a church of over a billion members, compared to how many tens of religio practioners? NR demanding a vatican sized "forum" is somewhat akin to a 1st day piano student demanding a venue similar to the Albert Hall to perform his finger exercises for his instructor.

As for Cassius...I still wish him well. But I do not pity him for what happened to him. He created this monster and it, like Dr. Frankenstein's creation, got out of control. Now the monster has bitten him in the arse... Oh well.
Cassius formally ended our friendship over something I said in a public venue: If one man dresses in a toga, takes a Roman name, and imagines himself a Roman magistrate, we call him a lunatic. If a group of people do this, we call them a micronation.

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Re: Expats from Nova Roma

Postby Q Valerius on Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:18 pm

Marcus Lupinius Paulus wrote:Remember that the Vatican is headquarters to a church of over a billion members, compared to how many tens of religio practioners? NR demanding a vatican sized "forum" is somewhat akin to a 1st day piano student demanding a venue similar to the Albert Hall to perform his finger exercises for his instructor.

No disagreements there. I was just correcting the misconception.

As for Cassius...I still wish him well. But I do not pity him for what happened to him. He created this monster and it, like Dr. Frankenstein's creation, got out of control. Now the monster has bitten him in the arse... Oh well.

Very true.

Cassius formally ended our friendship over something I said in a public venue: If one man dresses in a toga, takes a Roman name, and imagines himself a Roman magistrate, we call him a lunatic. If a group of people do this, we call them a micronation.

I can't believe you just called members of the SCA lunatics.

What about Orthodox Jews who still dress in traditional clothes? Or people who were kimonos? Because they don't wear modern clothes, are they too lunatic?

Finally, do you like pissing on others' parade? If you don't consider yourself a part of that community, all is fine and dandy. No one is forcing you to be there. But it seems you're a little miffed at something they did and are not being spiteful because of it.
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Re: Nova Xi'an ?

Postby Q Valerius on Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:25 pm

Formosus Viriustus wrote:Well, Nova Roma explicitly forswears any recurrence to non peaceful means in the pursuit of their goal of an independent and sovereign state. So, I can have little moral objections to that, but it makes them seem pretty inconsequential to say the least. Romans, of all people, who forswear any recurrence to force or violence in the pursuit of what they see as a just claim ? Come to that, shouldn't they rather forswear the use of the internet, any form of modern communication, transport and so on ? March on Rome in full armour and just 'take' the place ? Killing every living being, cats and dogs included, while they are at it ?

Yes, and Jews should slaughter all the Palestinians just like Yahweh commanded. :roll:

Seriously, there are quite a few members of SVR who are or have been member of NR too and although many reactions are rather negative, not all are and I can see the attraction of an organisation like NR for people who want to immerse themselves much more deeply into the Roman culture than I am willing to. No toga's or tunics for me, thank you.

You don't have to wear a toga or a tunic to be a part of NR. You can just worship Roman gods in fellowship, like many of us there do.

I'm much more an SVR kind of person. An organisation like NR could have a lot to offer, not only to its members, but to the rest of society too, if it was run in the right spirit, but that doesn't seem to be the case very much.

And that's a huge part of the problem.

And by that claim to an independent state with its own territory they don't do anybody a favour. Unless it would be their deliberate aim to set themselves up as an ostracised, alienated and persecuted minority.

If you look, you will not find "independent state" anywhere, nor do they have any territory either.

And finally, unless I'm very much mistaken the vast majority of the members of NR are not Romans at all. They are not even Italians. I suspect some of them have not even been in or near Rome or Italy in their life. They just pretend to be Romans. If I was to call myself a New Han or a New Tang and gathered a handful of like minded people around me, would that make my claim to some actual territory in or near Loyang or Xi'an, any less ridiculous ?

You don't need to be of Italic descent to be Roman. Seneca was a Spaniard, Augustine was African, a good number of Romans were of Greek, Gallic, Germanic, Syrian, Jewish, Anatolian, Mesopotamian, and Egyptian descent. Finally, you do not need to be born a Roman to worship the Roman gods.

Vale.
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Re: Expats from Nova Roma

Postby Marcus Lupinius Paulus on Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:38 am

"Finally, do you like pissing on others' parade? If you don't consider yourself a part of that community, all is fine and dandy. No one is forcing you to be there. But it seems you're a little miffed at something they did and are not {sic} being spiteful because of it."

Ok, let's review a few things. First, I did not begin this topic. You did. On Nov. 3. 2007 you posted, "Are you an expat from Nova Roma? Do you have qualms with the place? Why did you leave? What's your story? What were you looking for? Did you find it, but changed your mind? Or were you looking for something different? Please do share! I'm very eager to learn."
So I shared a bit.

Second, before this morning, my last post here was over a month ago, and even that was in the context of welcoming a new member. You responded to me a month after that, when the topic was pretty much dead. Feel free to do a search on my postings in the forum, and you will find my comments on Nova Roma are pretty rare, and even then they are usually more about a specific individual in the nature of "whatever became of _______?"

You also said to Formosus, "If you look, you will not find "independent state" anywhere, nor do they have any territory either."

I answer with your own NR Declaration: "We, the Senate and People of New Rome... declare the founding of Nova Roma as a sovereign nation. We manifest Nova Roma as an independent world nation and republic, with its own legal constitution and lawful government, with all international rights and responsibilities that such status carries."

"I can't believe you just called members of the SCA lunatics."

I didn't. SCA folks can distinguish their role play and reenacting from the real world.
Nova Roma cannot.

"What about Orthodox Jews who still dress in traditional clothes?"

Orthodox Jews really ARE Jews, and Israel is a real nation.
Nova Romans are not Romans, {save for those who actually reside in a place called Rome} and Nova Roma is not a real nation.

"Or people who were kimonos? Because they don't wear modern clothes, are they too lunatic?"

Kimonos are mere clothing. A woman who merely wears a kimono is not a loon. A man who merely wears a toga is not a loon either, though he is probably an eccentric. However, an American or European woman who wears a Kimono, joins New Nippon, a micronation claiing to be the rebirth of Shogun Japan, is proabably a loon. And so what shall we say of modern Americans and Europeans who take a fictitious name, join a Yahoo Mailing list, and think they are a nation? What shall we think of them when they play cloak-and-dagger backstabbing games, and fight over their titles to be the Big Man On the Mailing List? And while we are at it, just how many Consuls, Praetors , Aediles, Tribunes, and Senators does it take to run a mailing list anyway?

Let people say what they will of SVR. It is at least SANE, and by far a happier atmosphere.
The opinions I am expressing are my own, and not necessarily those of other SVR members or officials.

As Bill O'Reilly says, you can have the last word! :D :?

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Re: Expats from Nova Roma

Postby Valerius Claudius Iohanes on Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:42 am

Sodales Sociique -

We seem to be on the verge of open war here. Let me say a few things.

i. I don't think we need to do NR-bashing on this site. The NR is a serious organization, a dedicated one. If we have problems with their views and their prejudices, we can state this here. But I don't think we should just up and discredit them because we see things differently.

ii. As I understand it, Poplicola is correct in pointing out that NR was created for the purpose of restoring the practice of the Religio Romana. Their micro-nation ambitions are bound up with this, and they are ambitions not yet realized. That puts them in a different camp from the SVR. We do not have a goal of restoring the Religio, but of learning about it; we do not claim micro-nation status, but are content as a sodalitas. I still think we are the yin to their yang, and that each group has an argument to make for its existence and mores.

iii. Poplicola, your rudeness to our latest member, Nephele, and your expression of contempt for her organization was uncalled for. But I would also note that you expressly excused Nephele herself from blame. If you think you were unfairly treated by the UNRV, and you wish to speak of it here, you have the freedom. But if you would hope for some better conduct from others here regarding NR, you yourself should refrain from UNRV-bashing and that contemptuous tone.

I also have to wonder at your general tone of contempt for the SVR itself. Is there something you want to tell us?

iv. Finally, everyone, do we really need all this hyperbole?

Poplicola's analogy of the Vatican didn't imply more than the existence of NR and, were they able to, one day getting their own administrative center. Many other groups have their admin centers or their retreats.

I don't myself think the NR folk who conduct their rites are ridiculous - they simply take their religion more seriously than most of us do. Why would rites for Hercules be any more wrong than the rites of the Mass? Who can prove "my god is better" or "my religion is better"? No one can; they can only assert it. You can all argue forever, but I don't think you prove anything more than mankind's collective ignorance.

And Formosus's hyperbole about the Nova-Romans storming Rome itself was gory and provocative. Poplicola's reply was more so, pushing as it did other buttons. And that's the path we're on here - quarrels and anger and blame and extreme and insulting analogies. What's the point? Let NR be NR - we, the SVR, don't need to emulate the bile and intolerance so often seen there.

Cedant arma togae.
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