When did the Roman Empire REALLY end ?

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When did the Roman Empire REALLY end ?

Postby Valerius Claudius Iohanes on Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:52 am

Salve, Sempronii Formose -

Good points, I think. I think that even if one can delineate an end point for the Roman Empire, it will be only a legalistic or technical point. When, for instance, did the Senate as a body disappear? Or the magistracies preserved by Augustus? The latter must have disappeared bit by bit in both Western and Eastern Empires, I suppose.

As to the Turkish claim, the only counter-argument that I can think of is that the Byzantines did not willingly become second-class citizens in the Turkish Empire, that it was a war of conquest that felled the last Byzantine emperor - much as if the Germans or Parthians had been the conquerors in place of the Turks.

But then, as so often in even the heyday of the Empire - or even earlier, in the later years of the Republic - might made right, in terms of who would rule. The Turks were by 1453 CE a European faction, as you point out. And then the "Latins" had already conquered and divided up the Empire, as foreigners, in 1261 CE.

It's an interesting question.
Valerius Claudius Iohannes
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When did the Roman Empire REALLY end ?

Postby Valerius Claudius Iohanes on Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:48 am

Salve iterum, Formose -

Thanks for correcting my dates - as you can see, I am not much a scholar (despite the role I've taken in our RPG)!

I agree about Caligula. From the feisty, truculent, but legalistic Tiberius to the irreverent and anti-reverent Caligula, is about as dramatic a change as one could get, and highlights the contrast between Augustus's principate and regular despotism.

As to Enrico Dandolo, Heavens! Another amazing figure of history, but I am low-brow enough to harbor a lot of partisan resentment for his role in directing Crusading zeal at the inheritors of the Roman heritage and the Augustan potestas! :? But it's nothing unusual in inter-state politics, of any era, I know, I know. :cry:

The joke is, on my mother's side, I myself am a Baldwin. :lol:

Vale bene.
Valerius Claudius Iohannes
Curator anno MMDCCLXII
Centurio Honorarius Societatis

:: Adversitas bono viro intelligentiam docet. ::
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