Moderator: Aldus Marius
Tiberius Dionysius Draco wrote:Whenever I think of the Romans as Liberators, it sounds to me as if they saved people from tirants or something like that.
It seems to me that the Romans gave, in varying degrees to various peoples:
-Access to the Mediterranean cosmopolis for some among the provincial elite;
-Opportunities to make a fortune;
-Literacy and History for the educated;
-Certain kinds of military know-how;
-Technology: aqueducts, roads, multi-storey concrete construction, etc.;
-A rather tolerant umbrella-system for Deities;
-Roman citizenship, as available.
Tiberius Iulius Draco wrote:As I've said before, in other regions they DID come as liberators (see Caesar who freed Gauls from inner conflict and truly civilized this truly barbaric nation).
Tiberius Dionysius Draco wrote:I guess it all depends on what "civilization" exactly means according to you.
By the way, nice username, reminds me of someone I know.
Vale bene,
To Tiberius Iulius Draco,
True but to be fair the Dacians were constantly breaking imperial treaties and manning raids south of the Danube. I am inclined to think that while money was defiantly a huge factor, the cost of keeping troops along the border and the idea to defend against constant attacks rather than just eliminating your enemy was also part of the equation.
But the destruction of their capital is explainable enough, the Dacian king broke a peace treaty twice and I think its fair to say Trajan wanted blood for that. Not excusing it, just explaining it.
Its a vexing mystery to me how Greece Rome and other such civilizations managed to achieve the things they did so early, when most other culture were still tribe based and rather primitive.
I know admittedly less about Dacia but I do know that they lacked civil institutions like schools, sewers, and running water, or I think I do, at least nothing on the scale of their neighbors to the south... I guess I am a sucker for public works... then again that's my dads job.
Actually if you can offer some resources on traditional Dacian city planning and administration that would be good. Admittedly a lot of what I know comes from a history mod for a video game, (but I must stress they are very very good! they defiantly did their homework.)
"the lands south of danube were of kinsmen, wouldnt you fight for cousins and brother?"
"so (as king) breaking a peace treaty which enslaves your people and your country is a bad thing?"
"That peace treaty was made first off because romans won the war (saying cheated by kidnapping Decebal's sister, would be inappropriate as it was war thus understandable), and second off so that Decebal could re-organize his army."
"Nonetheless the destruction of the capital was a sign that the romans feared dacians more then any previous enemies... (and they had reason too, because even after the war the Free Dacians and Carps continued to wage minor war, only to reconquer the land of their forefathers a few centuries later with the help of Goths)."
one word: spirituality. Didnt want to say religion... Thing is that greek/roman religious morality drives man to a scholarly/scientific point, while the religious morality of "barbarians" drives man to evolution of self(be it through warfare -those under
"Wotan/Gebeleizis-, be it through hermitage and ascetism -those under Mithra, Zamolxis, etc). Either way, barbarian religion never stressed that there should be great economy or anything... they couldnt care less whether they had 10 gold crates and 100, they wanted to go down in history, to live on through descendants, to be strong and powerful in order to deserve entry in Walholl (germanic) or above the skies (dacian/celtic)."
"They didnt lack civil institutions, they had fewer obviously as they didnt need bureaucracy, however they had water mills (and from what i know many barbarian peoples had), sewers surely started in the eastern sea-side greek colonies but probably developed in other places as well."
"But it's true, the quantity (and for sewers quality as well) was not of the magnitude of the greeks and romans..."
"However, the quality of the schools was laudable considering that the dacians knew of herodot, could recite homer, and so on. Plus, some (as i've said) studied in Athens,"
"Corinth, Rome, etc... And i wish to add that Decebal was one of the greatest generals of his time having outsmarted and intimidated romans time and again(one example would be when dacians put shields on trees to make romans think that there's lots more dacians, romans fell for it)."
"The reason Trajan won was that he had more numbers... sole reason... As Mark Anthony said(i think): "Even a lion can be killed by a hundred of hungry dogs."
"all i could offer you or others is in Romanian... some information can be found here'
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