Why Religio?

[Q. C. Locatus Barbatus]

Salvete,



This subject may be a controversial one, but as we all are civilized people, I thought to give it a try:


Why should I believe in (a) God(s)?


Valete,


Locatus

[Quintus Aurelius Orcus]

Salve Locate
You ask why should you believe in the gods or god? Than i can ask you why believing in yourself or anything else for that matter. It is a personal issue that only you can resolve. We as humans want to believe in something that is bigger than us, at least most of us do, but not all. If a christian decides to make saints gods, lesser gods than that is his right so long as he does not want to oppress his beliefs on others. Same goes for everyone else. We live in a world where we are free to believe in anything we want so long qs it does not violates laws. At least that is hoz i view and see it.
Vale optime in pace deorum
Sokarus Aurelius Orcus

[Horatius Piscinus]

Salve Locate

Belief is a personal opinion. If you want empirical evidence, I am sure some may try to offer their opinions on proofs of the existence of the gods. If you wanted proofs by logic there is always people who enjoy an argument. It still comes down to personal opinions. Your "Why should I believe" would have to mean your own personal opinions.


Some of this subject we have covered before in the Col Phil. Should it be covered here? There is a basic assumption held in the Col Rel of a belief in the existence of the gods. Not all of us would however share in the same convictions as to the nature of the gods. Conviction is strengthened by examining our own beliefs, so I would consider this an appropriate subject to address here.

Perhaps a good place for us to start would be to consider Cicero's "De Natura Deorum" as in it he laid out a number of arguments that philosophers used in an attempt to prove the existence of the gods and what their nature may be. You could go further, too, with the arguments offered by later philosophers. In the end though, there is no logical argument for the existence of the gods, or any factual examples that can be empirically proven. It is more a matter of personal belief attained from personal experience.

Vade in pacem deorum
M Horatius Piscinus

[Quintus Aurelius Orcus]

Salvete
I have another question. Was there a hero worship similar to the Hellenic hero worship? If so; are they honored in the same way as the Greeks did?
valete optime

[Horatius Piscinus]

Salve

Salvete
I have another question. Was there a hero worship similar to the Hellenic hero worship? If so; are they honored in the same way as the Greeks did?
valete optime

Interesting question. The most popular god throughout Italy, next to Jupiter, judging from the number of dedications and images, especially small bronze statues for lararia, was Hercules. By the end of the Republic Latin authors recognized the souls of heroes being higher than those of common people. This latter concept was probably a Greek influence due to the rather ambiguous native idea on the soul. Hercules replaced or assumed the attributes of a number of local folk heroes, as far as we can tell. Caecus is probably one of these earlier folk heroes. Rock paintings that go back as far as the Neolithic suggest other Italian folk heroes. So there was some native form of hero worship as in most societies. But Roman hero worship like the Greeks? Aeneas was adopted as a Latin hero in the fourth century, apparently at Lanuvium first. Gentes had their family heroes. Historical figures were used as models of virtues, as seen perhaps in Valerius Maximus and Livy. But hero worship in the same manner as in Greece, what was the Greek manner of hero worship?

Vale optime
Moravius Piscinus

[Quintus Aurelius Orcus]

Salve Piscine

Concerning the greek manner of hero worship; i'm studying the subject for all sorts of reasons to write a essay on it and to present it here and in the Collegium Graecum, since it is a topic that fits there aswell.
What you told me about Roman hero worship, it seems to me that there are similarities due to some Greek influences. Both Burkert and Campbell say that hero worship is perculiar to Greek mythology and religion. I can't go any deeper on this today since i'm not feeling well right now: throat hurths, etc... I will do my best to continue studying the topic through the availeble books i have and maybe i can deliver something by the end of the week (friday or so).
vale optime

[Quintus Aurelius Orcus]

Salvete
Since i'm feeling better now, i will say something about the Hellenic hero worship before i start write a essay about it.
The worship of heroes is perculiar to the Hellenic religion. It seems that this kind of worship survived all these millenia and similarities can be found between hero worship and the honoring of saints The hero of heros is usually a figure out of mythology or history was was revered for his actions. Even though these heroes could influence the world while they are alive, they could it also when they are dead. In fact, the hero could influence the region where he is worshipped. He could use his "powers" to do good or evil. But he definitly uses his powers for evil when his worship was stoped or neglected. But when worshiped, the protected the region. This is an aknoweledgement of the same passionate anger that drove the heroes to their heroic actions in the first place. Perculiar, these heroes show similarities to some Greek Orthodox saints. A Heroon is the grave or tomb where the hero was buried. Unlike most heroes, there were some who didn't had graves because they were honored and worshiped throughout the Hellenic world. So most heroes were local heroes who were honored with prayers, sacrifices and libations. They couldn't been worshiped anywhere because the rest of the Hellenic world didn't knew that he excisted. Like i mentioned, some were worshiped through Hellas and were given panhellenic status like Oddyseus, Achilleus, etc... The way these heroes are worshiped stands close to the worship of the Chthonic Gods and the ancestors. But the worship of Herakles (Hercules) is different than that of most heroes. First of all, he is the son of Zeus and Alcmene. Secondly, when he died, he became a God. So he became a Hero God.
Herakles is considered the hero of all heroes but yet his characteristic tells us he breaks more the rules of being a hero. Herakles begins his life as a mortal with superhuman strength and appetite, but his death is only the beginning. It is in a human nature to honor great anchievements and since there was no grave where they could honor him, the Hellenes solved this problem with a typical pragmatic way. Herakles recieves two kind of sacrifices: one in a heroic way and one in a Olympian way.
my sources for this are: Drew Campbells book "Old Stones, New Temples, and Walter Burkert: "Greek Religion"
Valete optime

[Quintus Aurelius Orcus]

Salvete

I found this test on Greek Gods at selectSmart.com where other tests could be find on Roman Gods and Goddesses. I thought i could post it here. Anyway it is a fun test to do to see what kind of God or Goddess you resemble the most.
Here are my results:
#1 Poseidon-He was the ruler of the sea, and Zeus's brother. He created the first horse, and the first earthquake. He was happily married. He is always seen carrying his trident.
#2 Hades-He controlled the underworld (heaven & hell). He is Zeus's brother. He is known for being merciless, but just. he is also rich for he owns all metal/gems found in the earth. He married Persephone, whom he had kidnapped. He was king of the dead, but was not death itself.
#3Apollo- was Artemis twin brother. He was a great musician, and the god of truth, light, and healing.
Here is the url for anyone else wanted to do this test: http://www.selectsmart.com/FREE/select. ... =greekgods
valete optime in pace deorum

[Anonymous]

Wether you believe or not is irrelevant. Wether there's a god or not is irrelevant. You have to realise why you seek out religions or god. Once you've realised why then wether there's a god or not will be of no importance.

[Horatius Piscinus]

Salva sis Aenima

An interesting sentiment. And could you expand on this comment that the existence of the gods would be of no importance were you to realize why you seek them?

Once before, long ago, in a far distant Other Place, I wrote:

"I feel that if one truly believes in a deity, a deity of any kind, then it must truly be a humbling experience. How then could someone who truly approaches their deity with humility do anything other than question everything they have come to believe. Who moreso than Plato in the Parmenides critically examined Plato's system of thought? And what are the wonderful poems of the mystic Jelaluddin Rumi but an approach to his god Allah through questioning himself? Reflected in the piety of such men I must always examine myself. Did not Jesus have a moment of doubt, and confronted himself in a garden before he resolved to meet his destiny? And to whom did Arjuna speak in his moment of hesitation on the battlefield? Or to whom did Socrates speak? Who is the Poimandres with whom Trismegistis speaks? Having such examples presented to us, can we do any less? And when it comes our turn to lie upon our deathbed will we have the same confidence of Plotinus that that which is the better part of ourselves shall return to whence it came?

"Like you (Marcus Audens) I examine my own beliefs by holding them up to the light I find in the beliefs of others. The words of others and the sacred texts of many different belief systems give me pause to think of my own beliefs. I would therefore welcome anyone to discuss such topics with me. But also, as I was discussing with another citizen, dear Pompeia, such discussions only move the intellect. As a pagan I know that my intellect might approach my soul, but only through experiencing the divine may the soul reunite in ek stasis with my goddess and together shall we pass on to whence we came. That is perhaps the distinction I make between philosophy and religion, the difference between the experience of the animus from the anima."

I hold that one cannot truly have knowledge of the gods or therefore of their existence. I also hold that there is no logical argument to be made in support of the existence of the gods. Yet in spite of our own intellectual limitations we still possess a belief in the gods, however irrational it may be, almost with an innate sense of their existence. Now I may not understand quite what you have in mind, which is why I would like to see you explain more on your thoughts, but the assigning of importance to something would appear to me to be an intellectualizing process. One assigns relative importance between this and that with some form of rationale, logical or illogical as it may be, as a mental activity. OTOH one can have knowledge of himself or herself, including some understanding of why they would personally approach the gods or seek Them out to meet some personal needs. Such an act on our part might not be consciously indertaken, so we would not necessarily realize at first why we would take such an irrational action. It is our soul after all, rather than the rational mind, that decides to seek out the gods. Therefore I would tend to agree in your statement, seeing it as I do as a matter that a subjective realization of the irrational actions of the soul puts aside any questions that attempt to rationalize the existence of the gods. Approaching the void, trusting in the irrational certainty, then becomes the humbling experience.

Di deaeque te ament
Moravius Piscinus

[Primus Aurelius Timavus]

I also found Aenima's posting very interesting indeed. I wonder whether the same thinking can be applied to the question of What is Death being discussed in the Collegium Philosophicum.

Aenima, would you agree that once one realizes why one is afraid of death one will realize why one's death is of no importance?

Tergestus

[Anonymous]

One should believe in the existence of God*, by which I mean divinity, because the cosmos declares it.
The cosmos exists as a witness to the eternal cause of cosmic existence.

One should believe, trust, in God, because God demands it.
God is by the nature of divinity eminently trustworthy.

*I use the word God, capitalised, to mean divinity, godhead, the gods collectively and as a name of Jove.

[Horatius Piscinus]

Salve Belene

Are all gods trustworthy? There are various levels of gods, and of the cosmic gods I don't know what attributes could be said of them. Fortuna as trustworthy though? Or Laverna? And Mercurius can be playful at times.

Vale
Moravius Piscinus

[Anonymous]

Salve Moravius

"Are all gods trustworthy?"

Even the mischievous ones must ultimately be trustworthy, or we are not talking about Gods.

Vale

[Gnaeus Dionysius Draco]

Salve Belene,

What do you mean? Trustworthy in their mischief?

Vale,
Draco

[Anonymous]

Salve Draco

What do you mean? Trustworthy in their mischief?

I suppose, ultimately?

Vale

[Horatius Piscinus]

Salve Belene

Even the mischievous ones must ultimately be trustworthy, or we are not talking about Gods.

Eheu, I agree. Mercurius means to teach us a lesson when He is mischievious. Laverna might be said to have a sense of humor. She is always looking at things from a different perspective, opening our eyes to other possibilities. And Fortuna, no one can fanthom Her designs but we should trust in what She metes out for us. And yes, to be gods they must be good and therefore trustworthy.

Di Deaeque te semper ament. Vale optime
Moravius Piscinus

[C.AeliusEricius]

By "Trustworthy" of course it is not meant, "On YOUR side". Because what makes my side the side that They should be on? From Their point of view, and that of the Fates, and whateverelse, I (or you, or we) may just be on the down swing at point X in time. It was pre-ordained that Troy would fall to the Argives. The Immortals had favorites, and did what They could, but sometimes there wasn't much that could be done. Even by the likes of Them. For an anthiest I would say to interpret the poetry in such a view of the universe. If they have no poetry in their soul, then ...
.

Di Deaeque vos semper ament.

C. Aelius Ericius.

[Anonymous]

Salve Ericius

Do you think that your patron deities are "On your side" ?

Vale

[Anonymous]

I love those tests, so I took it, here are my results:

#1 Hades-He controlled the underworld (heaven & hell). He is Zeus's brother. He is known for being merciless, but just. he is also rich for he owns all metal/gems found in the earth. He married Persephone, whom he had kidnapped. He was king of the dead, but was not death itself.

#2 Apollo- was Artemis twin brother. He was a great musician, and the god of truth, light, and healing.

#3 Hephaestus- was the only crippled god. He had a deformed leg. He was the fire god. He created all the god's armor and weapons. He was known as being very kind and good natured. He was the blacksmith to the gods.

#4 Poseidon-He was the ruler of the sea, and Zeus's brother. He created the first horse, and the first earthquake. He was happily married. He is always seen carrying his trident.

#5 Ares-was the god of war. He was known as being a coward, and was quite disliked by most.

#6 Aphrodite-was married to Hephaestus, but did not love him. She was the goddess of love. She was the most beautiful of all the goddesses. She was very vain. She could be spiteful at times but was usually just a ditz.

#7 Hestia-she is Zeus's sister, and is goddess of the hearth. She is know for being one of the three virgin goddesses.

#8 Artemis- was Apollo's twin sister. She was the huntress goddess. She was also the protector of youth. She was one of the three virgin goddesses. She hated men and loved only the hunt. She was also known as the moon goddess.

#9 Hera-she is Zeus's wife and sister. She was the protector of marriage. She was also known for the cruel punishments she would inflict on the women Zeus slept with. She was also very vain.

#10 Athena- was the goddess of battle. She was known as being logical and wise. she was also the protector of weavers, architects, and artists. She was one of the virgin goddesses, and was vain.

#11 Zeus-Ruler of all the gods. He ruled the sky, and wielded the lightning bolt. He is married to Hera, but sleeps with many a mortal women.

#12 Hermes- was the messenger of the gods. He was very mischievous. He was the god of thieves. He had a winged hat, and winged sandals.