Gilgamesh

[Quintus Aurelius Orcus]

Salvete

It is said that in the epic that Gilgamesh went to search for the secret of immortality. I haven't read it yet, but I'm planning on doing it this summer. I'm currently rereading the Illiad.
Hercules/ Herakles has ben compared with Melqart and Gilgamesh because both of them were sons of important deities, possible king of the gods, I don't know. My info on Mesopotamian mythology is rather rusty.
I think that the link between Gilgamesh and Hercules/ Herakles lies in the fact that both of them might have searched for the secret of immortality.
I have to read the Gilgamesh epic to be precise, but I think that both of them found immortality and possibly made gods.
So my question is, did Hercules have a bigger status in Roman religion than his Greek counterpart? Did Hercules have a cult like Dionysos and Bacchus had? What about Gilgamesh? So far, I haven't come across anything that states that Gilgamesh became a god.
I guess, my search continues.
valete optime

Romulus

[Horatius Piscinus]

Salve Romule

Gilgamesh did not become a god, or attain immortality. He did mange to wrestle himself a bottle of the elixir of life, but when he set it down a snake drank it.

The importance of Roman Hercules compared to Greek Herakles? I don't know, how important was he to the Greeks? In Italy there are more dedicatory inscriptions to Hercules than any other deity, except of course those to Jupiter. Images of Hercules were often included in lararia because Hercules represented virility and thus was thought to aid in preserving the family. Interesting that Horace and Persius mention 'impious' prayers being made to Hercules, as He was seen especially important to the vulgus profanum. He was called upon the masses for all kinds of favors, granting wealth, protection against any danger, and was the God most sworn by. Semo Sancus was regarded as Hercules by the Late Republic. Images of Hercules also frequently appear in depictions of the Blessed Isles. That may go along with Cicero's comments that virtus was the way of ascending to the heavens. And there were later philosophical ideas about Hercules as one of the savior gods. So I'd say He was rather important to Romans, and that doesn't even mention all that was included in the cultus civile regarding Hercules

[Quintus Aurelius Orcus]

Salve Piscine

Yes, I read that in a summary of the Gilgamesh epic on a website about an half hour ago or longer. I think I will enjoy reading that epic since its full of themes that speaks to me and I guess to most people.
Herakles was rather important as an Hero God. His name was used in the same manner as modern people might say "Christ", they used Herakles instead. Although worshipped as a Hero God, he did not had cults in the likes of Dionysos or Demeter. According to Walter Burkert's Greek Religion, Herakles had several cults spread all over the Hellenic world except Crete. These cults were minor ones and local based cults. They were important to the young.
You could say Herakles was important to the ordinary man, because of what Herakles represents. Herakles became a god after a life of ordeals, so he was the hope, the spiritual hope for every human to reach a certain level as Herakles after they had died. You could say that they saw Herakles as a kind of saviour, he might have had the epithet Herakles Soter. I haven't came across much info of his cult practice, because Herakles' cults are more local, countryside cults, similar to the worship of the nymphs, so it seems.
valete optime

Romulus

[Anonymous]

Salvete!

Talking about Hercules, there is a massive picture of Him cut into a hillside about thirty miles to the west of where I live in a village called Cerne Abbas. For a long time it was assumed that the figure was of Celtic provenance, and it certainly has a stylised and barbaric look to it. More recent studies however have showed that in addition to the club the 'Giant' carries in one hand he originally held what appears to be a lion-skin in the other. He has consequently been identified as Hercules and His very obvious - and virile - presence would seem to point to the area housing either an outpost of the God's cult or at least a fused cult of mixed Roman and Celtic origin. I'm not sure about the dates mooted for its construction but I'll try and find out.

It does occur to me that I have read that Hercules (and Melqart for that matter) was less a name as such but rather a title and that there were many Hercules (What is the plural of Hercules?!?!) some of Whose myths became linked in the well-known Hellenic myths.

One more thing. As regards Gilgamesh you might find it interesting to check up the Indian myths concerning Bhima (found in the Mahabharata) and also the story of Hanuman's search for Sita as there are some very strong parallels with the Babylonian accounts.

Valete!

Brutus

[Quintus Aurelius Orcus]

Salve

Interesting. Well some people think that there were several historical Herakles'. Maybe there were also severalk Melqart's?
I never heard that the name Hercules was a title. I did hear that Baal was once a title, meaning Lord (like in Baal-Hadad or Baal-Ammon), but changed overtime in a deity.
So anything can happen.
Where did you read that Hercules was supposdly a title?
vale

Romulus

[Gnaeus Dionysius Draco]

Umm, the plural of Herakles or Hercules would be, in my logic, Heraklai or Herculae... but I'm not sure.

Draco

[Anonymous]

Salve Orce!

I was thinking of Robert Graves "The Greek Myths". I've just looked this up and he quotes Diodorus Siculus as writing of three heroes called Heracles (see the neat way I sidestepped the plural!). Cicero apparently raises the number to six in his 'On the Nature of the Gods' (iii.16). Varro then pushed the figure up to forty-four. I'm quoting Graves' own position below:-

"The story of Heracles is, indeed, a peg on which a number of related, unrelated, and contradictory myths have been hung. In the main, however, he represents the typical sacred king of early Hellenic Greece, consort of a tribal nymph, the Moon-goddess incarnate.........It may be assumed that the central story of Heracles was an early variant of the Babylonian Gilgamesh epic - which reached Greece by way of Phoenicia."

Vale!

Brutus

[Quintus Aurelius Orcus]

Salvete

I read that book also by Graves where he states that near Corinthe a Phoenician colony was located which brough the cult of the Titans to Greece. Than he also states that Medousa was original a goddess with a cult and her own calendar which was destroyed after the arrival of the patriarchal Aryans. Those evil patriarchal Aryans.
Its safe to say that Graves should have stick to writing poetry and novels instead of trying to be a historian.
valete optime

Romulus

[Anonymous]

Salve Orce!



Graves was on the whole my introduction to the Classical world and I always enjoy reading him but realise that he usually decided on his conclusion long before he started gathering the evidence to prove it. In particular I feel he tends to generalise and oversimplify, trying to refine everything down to a few key theories; the White Goddess, the Sacred King, nasty Aryan patriarchs (as you rightly mention), messy human sacrifices and so on.

For what it's worth my own feelings on Hercules, Gilgamesh et al are as follows:-

I think the heart of the myths concerning Them is this struggle to be better men, to do the right thing and to rise above a fairly brutal culture where strength usually meant beating up your weaker neighbours and taking their gold, their sheep and their wives (I don't say this from a position of cultural complacency, I realise that this is still often the case today). Neither Hercules or Gilgamesh were perfect and made mistakes and committed unworthy acts at times but nonetheless their intentions were on the whole good. The comparison between Hercules and Achilles, for example, is striking and I know who I would rather share a room with. I think this was why Hercules was so loved by the masses. He simply meant well and His apotheosis illustrated that as such He was beloved by the Gods.

As regards there being a number of different Herculae(?) this, I would say, is at least possible. There are always heroes, people trying to make a difference and set apart from the mass of humanity by their acts. It would be natural that stories would spring up around such men and that, in a society where stories were largely related orally, these stories might become confused and identified one with another. Maybe the 'original' Hercules acquired a few adventures that weren't His to start with but that doesn't diminish anything IMHO.

As far as the name being a title, "Beloved of Hera" does sound like the sort of title a devotee of the Goddess or Sacred King might have. I am conscious that in the myths that have come down to us Hercules' relationship with Hera is one of being bitter enemies, however the very fact of Him bearing the name seems to me to imply that the original relationship may have been rather different. I hope that's not too Gravesian!

Vale

Brutus

[Gnaeus Dionysius Draco]

Salve Brute!

As far as the name being a title, "Beloved of Hera" does sound like the sort of title a devotee of the Goddess or Sacred King might have. I am conscious that in the myths that have come down to us Hercules' relationship with Hera is one of being bitter enemies, however the very fact of Him bearing the name seems to me to imply that the original relationship may have been rather different. I hope that's not too Gravesian!

Well actually that name may have been apotropaeic, i.e. given to avert disaster coming from that very Goddess, a sort of appeasement measure, if you will. For example, the Greeks also gave Hades 'good' epithets which contrast with his overall gloom and the role he plays in religion and mythology, but this was to avert his wrath or to appease him. The same may have happened with Herakles.

Vale bene,
Draco

[Quintus Aurelius Orcus]

Salvete

Draco has a point when saying that it could be used as a means to appease Hera or any other goddess. Same things come up around Apollo, Artemis, Hekate, pretty much every deity has a similar title or name.
All deities had chthonic aspects which most people feared and tryed to appease. Apollo who brings medicines and health to people can also spread diseases like he did in the Greek camp during the Trojan war.
Herakles had also a title called Soter which means Saviour, not the kind Christ personify, but still a saviour from evil, other gods, who knows.
Your idea on Herakles- Gilgamesh is intriging, Brutus.
Well my intro to the Greek myths and legends was Gustav Schwab, than I read Greek myths by Robert Graves, than to others. I liked Gustav Schwab a lot because he brought the stories to the reader in a way one start to visualize it upon reading the stories.
valete optime

Romulus

[Gnaeus Dionysius Draco]

Salve Romule,

Oh yes, that little Schwab book is a classic! It also laid the foundations for my knowledge on Greek mythology.

Vale,
Draco

[Aulus Dionysius Mencius]

Salvete omnes!

The Gilgamesj epos is next on my to read-list, too. Coincidentally, I have already read big parts of it (during breaks) in the library since I am studying there during the week, but since tension is building and time is very evasive, I had to stop reading it temporarily.

This is a well timed topic, for, when I will read it eventually, I will keep some comments made here in mind...

Vale bene

[Quintus Aurelius Orcus]

Salvete

Well I just completed my reading of the Gilgamesh epic and I truly loved it. It is a amazing story, even when some parts of the story as missing or that is still in poem format. Its one of the best stories I have ever read.
Its just to bad some fragments are missing and some are younger than the original version of the story, dating back to the Sumerians.
valete

Romulus

[Quintus Aurelius Orcus]

Salvete

You may be correct that the story was a bit flat, although I didn't really noticed it. It may have been a simple story, but it tells more than most modern simplistic stories. It is one of the oldest around and it will probably remain so. I think we can assume there was at a time a historical Gilgamesh who was different from the mythical one. In the edition I borrowed, its confusing some times because one version tells that Gilgamesh is a mortal king, son of mortal parents, while another tells that he was the son of a mortal father and of a divine mother, a goddess.
Coruncane, i think you could be right. I do came to the conclusion that Gilgamesh represented civilization and enkidu nature or nomadic people. If one does see the interpretation of man against nature and that man loses, it will prove to some use of our modern society as it can remind us that man can not win against nature. nature will always be victorious over man, not the other way around as most people like to believe.
The gods create Enkidu to fight against Gilgamesh because of Giglamesh' opressive regime. Enkidu fails at defeating Gilgamesh, but Gilgamesh also fails at defeating Enkidu. The two become friends and undertake many adventures. The conquest of the cedar forest was one that invited the love of Ishtar, but her love for Gilgamesh is is unanswered as Gilgamesh wants nothing to do with her. This invited the rage of Ishtar after Enkidu also throws some insults at her and Ishtar wants to sent the bull of heaven to the two friends, if her father declined, she said that the dead will walk the earth and feast upon the mankind. The bull of heaven is released and it creates alot of carnage throughout the land. Gilgamesh and Enkidu are able to kill it, but Enkidu dies later of a diseases sent by the gods for helping to kill the bull of heaven. Gilgamesh is two-third mortal, Enkidu is all mortal, so Enkidu receives the punishment from the gods for not only killing the bull of heaven, but also for insulting a deity.
This shows that the gods will not really punish a demi- god, but they will punish a mortal for his or her sins/ crimes. Gilgamesh than seeks out a mean to escape death, because he knows that one day he will dy to, just as Enkidu. Like all living things, he's affraid of dying and wants to stop his own death. Eventually he got the means to become immortal, but doesn't trust it enough to consume it himself, he wants to try it on an elderly before he consume it. At one point, a snake consume the potion and becomes immortal sorth of speak because it sheds his skin.
Notably in this epic is the abscence of the god Marduk. He's nowhere to be found in the story, and the epic seem to favor Shamash over Marduk. Like my fellow Praetor said, the story itself is likely to be a combination of myth, history and viewpoint. The Sumerians probably thought that snakes were immortal due to their shedding of their skin. Also it is clear that the story wants to tell us that at one point Shamash, the sun god was one of the most important deities of the pantheon. To them the sun was giver of life and taker of life. They need the sun to survive, but they also realized the sun could kill them aswell. Which is true. In a desert, the sun is deadly. Cambyses' army realized this (to late) on their journey to overthrow some oases in the Egyptian desert. A combination of heat, drought and sandstorm was fatal to these soldiers as it was in the time of the Sumerians who likely had to cross deserts.
valete optime

Romulus