Diva Agrippina Augusta

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Diva Agrippina Augusta

Postby Publius Pomponius Tertius on Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:04 am

Dear Socii,
I am Publius Pomponius Tertius, descendent of Publius Pomponius Secundus, triumphant against Germans under Claudius & Agrippina, Top Commander of Rome but still better as Vates, "Octavia" tragedy author, loyal servant of Agrippina Augusta, custodian of her Commentaries and of her secrects.
Please, I ask you this:
a) is there someone of you interested into studies about Agrippina Augusta (starting from Anthony Barrett essay and Jack Holland novel)?
b) is there someone of you who does wish to declare himself a loyal servant of Agrippina Augusta?
c) is there someone of you who does think it's fair to declare her divinization since her excellent virtues?
d) is there someone of you who is interested in founding an official Cult of her? A kind of Order of her Flamens and Flaminicas?

Thank you very much for your answers.
I can provide more informations.

Best greetings,
Publius Pomponius Tertius Agrippinensis
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Postby Q Valerius on Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:36 am

a) A basic overview of who she is might be worth reading.
b) Probably not.
c) I *seriously* doubt it.
d) Almost certainly not.

Start with a.
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Postby Publius Pomponius Tertius on Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:27 pm

This is the kind of discord that destroyed the Roman State.
Rome fall down since it lost Feminine Power and Virtue.
Agrippina Augusta ruled Rome much better than Tiberius, Caligola, Claudius, Nero, Galba, Otho, and Vitellius, just to say about her times.
That's all.
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Hmm.

Postby Aldus Marius on Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:06 pm

Salve, Publi Pomponi, et Salvete omnes...

Well, *that* was weird.

I would like to see a bit of info about Agrippina Augusta, not sparing the iffy parts. I can't speak for anyone else; but she's got a bit of an image problem in my corner, which I am willing to overcome, but only with good reason. You plainly think quite a bit of the lady. So do many of our Sodales, some of whom have taken her name. Some of us do not. That's fine; people do differ on these things; and we will not question the validity of your opinion if you do not question ours.

As for deifying her, forming a cult around her...most of us have our own religions, ones with fairly lengthy traditions in many cases. A look at the names hereabouts will reveal a tendency towards the Republican era, and Republican Rome declared no man (or woman) a God.

I'd be interested in a discussion of Roma's "feminine power and virtue", if you'd care to start one. I have not heard Roma described in these terms, and am curious to know what they mean.

I do hope you return to read this, mi Terti; we are not a 'discordant' lot, only ladies and gents who can agree to disagree. Welcome to our Forum; I hope you enjoy your stay!

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Re: Hmm.

Postby Publius Pomponius Tertius on Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:23 pm

Aldus Marius wrote:Salve, Publi Pomponi, et Salvete omnes...

Well, *that* was weird.

I would like to see a bit of info about Agrippina Augusta, not sparing the iffy parts. I can't speak for anyone else; but she's got a bit of an image problem in my corner, which I am willing to overcome, but only with good reason. You plainly think quite a bit of the lady. So do many of our Sodales, some of whom have taken her name. Some of us do not. That's fine; people do differ on these things; and we will not question the validity of your opinion if you do not question ours.

As for deifying her, forming a cult around her...most of us have our own religions, ones with fairly lengthy traditions in many cases. A look at the names hereabouts will reveal a tendency towards the Republican era, and Republican Rome declared no man (or woman) a God.

I'd be interested in a discussion of Roma's "feminine power and virtue", if you'd care to start one. I have not heard Roma described in these terms, and am curious to know what they mean.

I do hope you return to read this, mi Terti; we are not a 'discordant' lot, only ladies and gents who can agree to disagree. Welcome to our Forum; I hope you enjoy your stay!

In fide,



Dear Praefectus, I remember the loyal Burrus,
I'm not an English mother in tongue, so please what does it look "weird"?
It's a problem for me to present Agrippina Augusta in a few words and in language that is not mine. I'm sorry.
I can suggest a very serious essay on English, by Prof. Anthony Barrett: "Agrippina. Sex, Power, and Politics in the Early Empire", Routledge 1999.
Anyway the real problem is not Agrippina. I was surprised about the lack of respect by first speaker. In Rome we have many Goddesses and Gods. A Roman does not joke about Gods of the others.
Also a few Roman Ladies were divinized as you know. Livia and Drusilla (sister of Agrippina), for instance.
Besides this is not a political matter, because female divinization is not concerned with their political achievements (they did not get an effective political power), but with their "religious" power.
So I have just propoused to other "citizens" of this virtual Rome, to honour Agrippina Augusta as a Goddess since she was optima imperial Flaminica of Roman State and foundress of Colonia Agrippinensis, the most important city in all middle-north Empire.
As you know Roman Pantheon is very big.
Emperor Traianus, the Optimus, built a monumental head of Agrippina in his family gallery in his own Forum in Rome: she was in his Pantheon of Deities.
I hope to have explained my point of view.
You did talk by a Roman.
First speaker, not.
All my friendship, Praefectus.
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Your Request

Postby Aldus Marius on Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:53 pm

Salve iterum, mi Terti!

It was "weird" because we don't often get people asking us to form a religion. In fact, that's only happened one other time, and it left a very bad taste in our mouths because the guy advocated ritual pedophilia among other disgusting things. (He's doing prison time now.)

Quintus Valerius Scerio is one of the most Roman people here; you should read him on the General-->Masterfully Comprehensive Plan topic, at least, before forming a firm opinion of him. He has not made any jokes about anyone's choice of deity; rather, he has given a brief but realistic estimate of your proposal's chances of acceptance in this community.

No one is keeping anyone from worshipping whomsoever they please. But it's a stretch to expect others to follow along. Not big followers, we Romans. Even in the Imperial era (my favorite; I'm a Flavian-Antonine, myself), a mutiny of the Legions was a thing to be reckoned with, and--rather catlike--the only way you could get such an army to do anything was to convince them that it was their idea all along! >({|;-)

Too, even if--IF--we wanted to deify your Augusta, we do not have the authority to do it. We are not an Emperor, we are not a Senate. We have neither the political nor the religious standing before the Gods to make such a thing stick. The Religio Romana, as practiced on the official or state level, no longer exists. That contract was broken when a Christian ruler ordered the Altar of Victory removed from the Senate-house, and the extinction of the Vestal flame. Something went out of the world then, and there is no getting it back. Many of us struggle to recreate even the humble little family rituals that allow us to invite the ancient Gods into our homes. The Gods, fortunately, understand the situation, and seem willing to work on this much smaller scale. But I wonder if They, like we, ever mourn what was lost?

I would still welcome any solid info about Agrippina. You do not need to post it in English; a number of us know Italian, Spanish, German, French, Dutch...and, of course, our Latin-speakers can at least get the gist of anything written in any of the above languages. Even the English vocabulary is about 60% Latin-based. We'll get what you need us to out of such a post; and it may even bring some of our other Italians back out of the woodwork! (Marcus Salix Corax, are you reading? *smiles* )

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Postby Publius Pomponius Tertius on Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:46 pm

Care Amiche ed Amici,
nella mia lingua posso esprimere con maggiore facilità il mio pensiero.
Cerco di rispondere a tutto, e soprattutto vorrei abbassare il tono delle polemiche, anche se le provocazioni non mancano: cosa c'entra Agrippina Augusta con un pedofilo della modernità?
A Valerio contesto che abbia voluto fare pronostici come un Augure, anziché esprimere la propria personale opinione.
Ma sia pace e amicizia a lui, per via del tuo segno, Prefetto.

Sulla disciplina dei Romani:
dipese sempre dal carisma del leader, non c'è dubbio.
Con Giulio Cesare e Germanico non ci furono ammutinamenti.
Non ci furono nemmeno con Agrippina, quando le insegne delle legioni sfilavano davanti al suo carro.

Sull'autorità per le nuove divinizzazioni.
Ti presento il problema in termini scientifici, politologici.
Nello Stato Romano l'autorità politica del Principe coincideva con la sua autorità religiosa, il Principe era il Pontefice Massimo, a sua volta il Principe era il Primo dei Senatori, quindi anche il Senato era una corpo sacro.
Ora noi non viviamo sulla Luna. Quelle cose accaddero qui.
Ma ora ci sono nuovi Stati, in cui l'autorità politica è divisa da quella religiosa.
Io sono leale al mio Stato, non credo che un pagano moderno debba essere un cittadino infedele, tuttaltro.
Ma poiché il mio Stato garantisce la libertà religiosa, perché non dovrei amare gli Dei dei miei padri?
La religione pagana non è più la religione di Stato.
E' come il Cristianesimo delle origini, spontaneo, quando ancora non vi era un Papa riconosciuto ed universale.
Il fatto che non vi sia più un Imperatore pagano od un Senato pagano, non vuol dire che non vi possa essere una religione pagana nella società.
Le scelte competono ora ai fedeli, finché non vi saranno maggiori Autorità riconosciute.
Non vi è dubbio che questa Comunità rappresenti una rinascita pagana. Da qui possono partire proposte e decisioni.
Inoltre per quanto riguarda Agrippina Augusta si tratta più che altro di riconoscere ed accettare decisioni già prese in epoca imperiale.
Con ogni probabilità fu Traiano a divinizzarla, forse già Vespasiano.
C'è un altro socio che scrive qui che ha già postato un articolo su questo: lei era considerata l'ipostasi di Demetra/Cerere. Vi sono fior di iscrizioni a questo proposito.

Sulle informazioni, suggerisco due passi preliminari e fondamentali:
a) la definizione sulla Wikipedia italiana (quella inglese è ripugnante):
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrippina_minore
b) la lettura della tragedia "Britannicus" di Jean Racine, facilmente reperibile. A dispetto del titolo, Agrippina è la vera protagonista con 453 versi contro i 241 di Britannico, figlio di Claudio.
L'importanza di questa tragedia sta nel fatto che essa è fedelissima a Tacito, che è la fonte principale di Agrippina.
Tuttavia Tacito è difficile da leggere da sé stesso. Un profano non può riuscirvi.
Racine consente anche ad un profano di capire Tacito.

Vi abbraccio e vi ringrazio tutti,
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Postby Primus Aurelius Timavus on Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:22 pm

Salve Terti,

Thank you for your considered reply and especially your desire to lower the "polemic" tone of this correspondence. SVR values civic discourse.

I think that some of the misunderstanding arose because of the perception that you are advocating that Aggripina be deified by the Societas as a whole. I think, rather, that you are simply interested in finding whether there are sodales who would like to join you in recognizing her as divine and perhaps worshipping her. Am I right?

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Postby Publius Pomponius Tertius on Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:07 am

Primus Aurelius Tergestus wrote:Salve Terti,

Thank you for your considered reply and especially your desire to lower the "polemic" tone of this correspondence. SVR values civic discourse.

I think that some of the misunderstanding arose because of the perception that you are advocating that Aggripina be deified by the Societas as a whole. I think, rather, that you are simply interested in finding whether there are sodales who would like to join you in recognizing her as divine and perhaps worshipping her. Am I right?

Tergestus


Egregio Tergestus,
tu hai perfettamente colto il problema.
Grazie.
Naturalmente l'attenzione della Comunità Romana nel suo insieme è la benvenuta, ma in primis io cerco sodales che condividano con me la stima e l'adorazione per Agrippina Augusta.
Il Movimento pagano nel mondo non è ancora organizzato. E' prematuro prevedere procedure formali.
Io preferisco vedere se ci sono sensibilità comuni, punti d'incontro su figure concrete.
Però colgo l'occasione per porti una domanda, caro interlocutore:
perché secondo te il paganesimo celtico è oggi molto più avanti di quello Romano-Mediterraneo, benché ovviamente vanti una storia meno insigne?
Ci sono siti web molto avanzati sul paganesimo celtico, culti organizzati, migliaia di aderenti attivi.
Come mai la cultura classica, greco-romana-punica, non riesce a rinnovarsi, a ritrovare slancio nella società d'oggi, nemmeno a livello di piccole comunità?
Questo forum è molto bello, e spero possa svilupparsi, ma loro sono più avanti: perché secondo te?
I migliori saluti,
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Postby Horatius Piscinus on Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:29 pm

Salvete

I see that not all posts are transferring over to this new site from our former site. Just on the surface, this new site at Cynico seems to be working better than the one at iPower. Below is a reply I wrote to Publius Tertius, which I post here even though his post hasn't made it yet.



Until recently, histories of Rome were written by men, based on ancient texts that were written by men. The social expectations of nineteenth century historianscast women as an evil influence when they "meddled" in the political affairs of men. And of course any woman who was especially good at politics was thought especially evil. The reputations of Agrippina and Livia have specially fallen to "modern" opinion in this regard and need to be reevaluated.

That is interesting that you attribute the period of peace and prosperty to Agrippina. Some historians I've read attribute it to the influence of Seneca, and only mention Agrippina in that she chose him as her son's tutor. I suspect the dynamics of the imperial court were more complex. And if Seneca was the power behind the throne he would likely have been assassinated long before Nero invited him to commit suicide. As it was, his end was due to his attachment with Agrippina. That in itself speaks of Agrippina being the real center of power and influence.

My area of interest is in the Italian Bronze Age and the transition into the Early Iron Age. Rome under the Republic is a secondary interest for me, and I am not especially familiar with the imperial eras. I have read Tacitus, but will have to do so again. And I need to read more of Seneca. The subject of emperors and empressess is beyond my usual discourse. But I was reviewing which empresses were declared divae.

The first women declared a diva was Caligula's sister Drusilla. She died on 10 June 38 CE, and was declared a diva after a senator praetorius swore having seen her ascension on 23 Sept. Caligula had earlier posed all three of his sisters as goddesses on his coins.

Claudius next declared Julia Augusta a diva, placing a statue of her in the temple of Augustus and making the Vestal Virgins responsible for her cultus.

Nero's infant daughter, by Poppaea, Claudia Augusta was made a diva in 63 CE, after living only four months. Poppaea was voted a diva by the Roman Senate in 65 CE.

Vespasian named his daughter Flavia Domitilla a diva after he came to the throne. She had died earlier.

Then it was not until Trajan's reign when women were again declared divae. He named his wife Plotina, his siter Marciana, and his neice Matidia. Next was named Hadrian's wife Sabina, and the wives of Antonius Pius and Marcus Aurelius, both of whom were named Faustina.

I would have to look into this more, but it seems to me that the idea of the empress embodying the feminie power of the empire as a personification of Ceres or Magna Mater really doesn't come about until the Antonines.

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Postby Publius Pomponius Tertius on Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:25 pm

Egregio Tergestus, viva la tua saggezza!
Parli benissimo l'italiano, e soprattutto hai esposto una ragione molto ben fondata.
Bravissimo.
Il trend celtico è soprattutto una moda che nasce da un fascino esotico non meglio precisato. Come folklore locale posso capire una sua risurgenza in Irlanda ma non capisco i "celtici" d'Italia.
La cultura Romana, nella percezione giovanile, sembra in effetti assorbita dalla cultura borghese.
Ma in effetti non c'è nessun legame tra l'assimilazione laico-borghese della Romanità e le sue radici storiche e religiose.
Io mi occupo di testi sacri pagani. Ovvero di Virgilio Ovidio, Tacito.
Che non sono "misteriosi" se letti a livello demotico-borghese, ma lo sono - eccome - se letti penetrando l'ermetismo religioso degli autori.
La mia ammirazione di Agrippina nasce dalla lettura "religiosa" di Tacito, che le è molto legato.
Chi conosce Jean Racine può ben vedere quale grande sforzo richieda Tacito.
Il mio miglior saluto,
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Postby Publius Pomponius Tertius on Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:25 pm

Dear Valerius,
I can read your beatiful Latin but mine is not good as yours.
I'm agree with you: we can resurge together with our language.
Actually Catholic Churc is trying to revitalize Latin as modern language.
It thinks to be the origin of Latin, but of course the origin is much much before: Livius Virgil Ovid Tacitus etc.
Anyway I hope you have understand something of what I said on Italian.
If you don't like Agrippina Augusta, let us to love her!

With friendship and the best greetings,
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Postby Publius Pomponius Tertius on Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:26 pm

Aldus Marius wrote:
Salvete iterum!

> Actually Catholic Church is trying to revitalize Latin as modern language.

They'll never do it as long as they insist on such clumsy constructions as "usus agonisticus medicamenti stupefactivi" (for 'steroids').

I mean, who else would call a pizza a "placenta compressa"? --See, this is what happens when they don't have any women about. Any farm wife will tell you that the only thing that's gonna eat a placenta is a brand-new mother dog!

In amicitia,



Yes, it's true, they dont' have any women.
An ancient mistake that we did do too.

In amicitia,
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Postby Publius Pomponius Tertius on Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:27 pm

Dear Senator Horatius,

thanks for your welcome.
I wrote you on private way also.
Because I read your interesting exciting posts about Female Divinizations, about Agrippina who likes fun (I think it's true), and about Manes which ispire living people (real lovely: you are a VATES!).
I'd like to think Agrippina's Manes called me.

Coming to your questions, yes I study ancient age since the opposition MALE/FEMALE.
I think a State is like a family: it can be felix only if a good man is married to a good woman.
So it's absurd a Senate in only for males and Princeps is only male.
A State can't go on in this way. Rome did not go on.
Catholic Churc is coming to a cultural end.
Tacitus admired Germans since their respect for Female power.
Exactly, political power among Germans was mainly male, but religious power was mainly female, and religious was superior to politics.
For instance we have German priestess Veleda who lead a revolt against Rome, one of more dangerous for the State.
This was the scheme of Agrippina and her followers.
It was clear it was not possible to come soon to a Princeps woman (dux femina as Dido), but it was possible to sponsor an high priestess of Romans.
Agrippina did get the most numerous identifications with Goddess of all the Empire: Isis, Demetra, Iuno, Cerere, Fortuna, Venus.
She got temple, statues, coins, iscriptions, everything.
Near half of all feminine portraits of Roman age are recognized to be of Agrippina Augusta.
Also damnatio memoriae very soon failed.
Above all she was the official Flaminica of the Empire.
The head of the State.
It's true no internal fight or external damage occurred during 10 years she was powerful.
Before and after her, it was caos, is not true?
Main difference with male leaders was she was not commanding for her own purpouses.
Even if Nero was her son, she was alone against him to pretend he had to be a good Princeps. She easily could make her affairs, leaving him to marry Poppea and kill as many Senators he liked.
Bur she opposed him seriously and he tried to kill her and then...
Male and Female have same power, they are perfect together, not to stay alone. Anyway it's clear, history proves this, a Queen is generally more trusting of a King.

Dear Horatius, very interesting your history of origins.
Anyway we can also go to Virgil and to see how Amata was an important Queen among Latins, and how Lavinia was the effective Princess.
In Imperial age, royal woman marriage had no importance. Princeps was just the son of another Princeps.
So we see Rome failed his steps.
Anyway it's important to add ALWAYS that women were respected as special creatures also in Roman age, while today even if there is the famous egalité between sexes, women are not valued for their own qualities and holy power. Today woman is becomed similar to a man, this is the egalité: the same errors!
Men and women are very different, with different powers but same importance. This was the very law and faith of pagan religion.

Now I go soon to read that tragedy of Seneca, thank you.
Seneca is very important for me because he was very important for Agrippina.
Tacitus report is very complex. Seneca role is not so clear.
May be he murdered Agrippina, my be he saved her.
I'm studying. If you have an idea, please let us know it.
I suggest you a trace: take Aedipus tragedy by Seneca.
You see Giocasta, a woman similar in such way to Agrippina who dies in the end in the same way as Agrippina did according to Tacitus: saying "ventrem feri" etc. very famous.
I have a theory and I wrote an essay about it but it's early to tell it.

Last question: well, all of what you write is interesting and enlighted as a real Senator of Rome.
All fair and right, really.
Just one concept: Agrippina divinization as other divinizations are not to put on correspondance with Imperial role, but more with an epic glory.
She is an Heroine of her times, just Hercules for their ones.
Like Dido for Carthaginians who became the supreme Goddess of Empire.
Well, why do you think to her, since her memory is still considered infamous from many historians? Do you know Barrett studies?

Thank you, best greetings to everybody,
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Postby Publius Pomponius Tertius on Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:42 pm

Dear Horatius,

I've posted here again the old messages.
Thank you for your latest one.

I don't want to carry you on my party by strenght or easy words...
Cioè non voglio tirarti dalla mia parte con l'adulazione.
But you are really a smart mind who would have to study history in a "official" way. I don't know if you are yet a researcher or a scholar in "real life".
I'm reading Seneca's Mad Hercules and you are right...
Juno is very surprising casted.
I read some echoes of Agrippina in her character, because Seneca wrote very much for political reasons.
Are you sure you don't wish to read my essay about Agrippina, where I argument, among other things, thesis she did not die in 59 by Nero?
One last thing: you tell about Diva Livia's statue in Augustus Temple.
But we have the proof of a gorgeous statue of Diva Agrippina in Divus Claudius Temple in Rome, so... (it's my avatar). Exactly the same...
Probably it was Vespasian to install her there. Trajan installed her in own Forum.

Best greetings to everybody,
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Imprimatur

Postby Aldus Marius on Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:07 pm

Salvete amici...

I hereby grant my retroactive blessing to Pomponius Tertius' transfer of his Diva Agrippina thread from our old Forum to our new one. It's been too good to miss! I'd been pondering how to move it over here m'self, but of course I was thinking about merging databases and other tech stuff that I don't even know how to do yet. I was going to tag Octavius Gracchus, our new and very gracious host. I was going to besiege the PHP [code] Discussion Forum. I was going to...

...but nothing beats good ol' cut-and-paste, does it? >({|:#)

(Techies. Rube Goldberg, of amusingly-complex machinery fame, was probably just trying to get his groceries up the stairs.)

Pactum factum. You have performed a service to our community, and quite possibly an act of pietas to your Augusta, by making this thread available to our newest members, those who will subscribe to this Forum never having known any other. (We old farts appreciate it too!)

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Primus Aurelius Tergestus scripsit

Postby Aldus Marius on Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:57 am

[Primus Aurelius Tergestus, in old Forum; these'll be a little out of order with the rest of the conversation:]

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:47 pm

Non lo so. Forse per raggioni della moda. Secondo la impressione populare, tutto Romano e ben conosciuto mentre tutto Celtico e misterioso. Lo sconosciuto sempre inspira paura e, quindi, adorazione.

(Scusi i miei errori della lingua).

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Q Valerius Scerio scripsit

Postby Aldus Marius on Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:00 am

[Q Valerius Scerio, on old Forum:]

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:58 am

Publi Pomponi Terti,

Linguam Italianam non loquor, sed fluenter in Latina. Et tu? Latinam loqui potes? Facilius nobis esset si linguam communam haberemus...

Quintus Valerius Scerio
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Aldus Marius scripsit

Postby Aldus Marius on Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:08 am

[Marius ipse, on old Forum:]

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:18 pm Post subject: New Church Latin?

Salvete iterum!


> Actually Catholic Church is trying to revitalize Latin as modern language.


They'll never do it as long as they insist on such clumsy constructions as "usus agonisticus medicamenti stupefactivi" (for 'steroids').

I mean, who else would call a pizza a "placenta compressa"? --See, this is what happens when they don't have any women about. Any farm wife will tell you that the only thing that's gonna eat a placenta is a brand-new mother dog! >({|;-)

In amicitia,

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Q Valerius Scerio scripsit

Postby Aldus Marius on Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:10 am

[Q Valerius Scerio, in old Forum:]

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:42 am Post subject:

You'd be surprised on what, and even who, exactly, eat placenta.
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