Being Roman

Salvete, new amici; tell us a bit about yourselves! But this is no ordinary Intro forum; you will learn quite a bit about the rest of us too. >({|:-)

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Postby Anonymous on Fri Oct 04, 2002 3:22 pm

Another question that is somewhat related to this discussion: if someone were to kill your brother/sister or a very close relative for no good reason (meaning your relative was totally innocent and bears no guilt for his own death), and you know who the killer is, would you kill that person yourself? Perhaps more something for ColPhi but let's do it here .

Hmmm. Well, if we lived in the ancient world I could lock the villian in a dungeon and torture him at my leisure for the rest of his life. Or sell him into hard slavery. Either of which would be a more deserving punishment than a quick death.

But given what the modern world is with its so called progress, neither option is today feasible. So, yes, I would exact death. Vengeance is not only a right but a sacred duty. As it's early in the morning I can't quite search my brain for historical examples in the ancient Greco-Roman world, but our friends in the Germanic Reconstructionist circles can write treatises on why defense of kith and kin is paramount.

Now I'm sure the more "enlightened" members of the forum will be all too glad to lecture me on why vengeance is a barbarity not permitted in our allegedly advanced society. I, however, was never one to accept the Christian doctrine of forgiving one's enemies, or the neo-liberal doctrine that all crime is the imperative of a faulty society. These two worldviews seem to have influenced the historical evolution of the Western concept of justice. If one is a Christian or a liberal, fine. But I work from a set of different premises, and to me blood vengeance is not a barbarous atavism but a matter of honor.

Cheers! :D

please behave inhuman!

Postby Q. C. Locatus Barbatus on Fri Oct 04, 2002 10:02 pm

Salvete omnes,

Death penalty...; I want tot prove that locking up somebody in prison can be a good idea.

There are many different types of inmates. I will take some well known types for example.

e.g.1: a drug dealer. Many drug dealers are addicts themselves. When they are imprisoned (e.g. for 15 years) they should be helped to kick of. But not only this. It is true that somebody that is in prison for many years costs our society money. Very much money. So we should try to let them raise funds. When this addicted person is in prison he should get an education. With this education and attained grade he should be able do his work within the prison. Of course his payments would be low, much lower than in the 'outside world', he is in prison, hein? As he does valuable work his self-esteem will go up (what these people need very much) and he will raise a little money for himself, to use within the prison. The money that is paid by the client for a job (well) done can be spend to maintain our prisons. When this person comes out after 15 years it will be easier to adapt to the outside world for him because he has a certain grade, he knows what it is to work and he is no longer addicted (although he will be needing therapy for many more years) and he has a higher self-esteem. He will also look back on those prison years as not completely wasted time. The social assistance of the prison should help this person to find a new social environment, in which his past will be accepted (as far as the others have to know) and his future looks bright.

e.g.2: a psychopath. A psychopath is someone who has the need for murdering. These people are often hard to catch. But I believe a psychopath can be useful for society too, but at its own level. Some psychopaths can be very smart. These people should be educated and should be given jobs they can practice within the prison. They can raise money to maintain the prison and even to make their prison life happier. As these people are biological shaped into a murderer, they cannot do something at that. We should respect them as human beings, but still be aware of their misfits. These people never should be released again.
The 'dumber' psychopaths (often people with a mental handicap) can be 'educated' to do small but fulfilling tasks. Cleaning, painting, cooking etc. so they experience the feeling of being needed, a feeling we all want to have.

e.g.3: the 'rich gangster-bosses' (you all know the type I mean). This is a difficult one. These people are almost always convicted for a small crime, because they are very well covered. They should be confronted with there past (one of family-murders, hiding and fleeing) and future (danger all the time, murdering plots, family life etc). They should be forced to have a look at what they did at their victims and be confronted with them (not necessarily physical). Their gathered fortune should be blocked, and used to pay their stay in the prison and for other useful and social projects (not to buy a joint strike fighter e.g.) except for the minimal amount of money they will need to live a sober life out of prison. They should be watched and followed closely after their release.

All right, my cases do not fit for all inmates, but I think death penalty often removes useful people from our society. And when you may not kill, punishing someone by killing him? Kinda hypocrite, isn't it? Especially when mainly the poor get killed by the government, and the rich always manage to escape. No human has ever the right to take someone's life; not a murderer and not us, killing under the name 'society'.

I understand the family of victims, and it is human to want revenge. But you can only be human by behaving inhuman, if you understand what I mean.


Last edited by Q. C. Locatus Barbatus on Fri Oct 04, 2002 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Fri Oct 04, 2002 11:01 pm

Locate, an interesting argument you bring forth. Very convincing.

Romule, to return to what you said. Blood vengeance was codified in Germanic society and still is in many other societies (African, Islamic...). In any case I don't think it's unnatural. I do think however that it can become a rampant tool of destruction if someone who is guilty of crimes himself becomes killed... then you get a situation that spirals out of control.

But with regards to the original question I brought forth, I would actually do it. I don't think I'd care if I'd be locked up for the rest of my life. I see it as a matter of personal justice. But I wouldn't resist if I'd be locked up afterwards. What's more, I'd probably turn myself in.

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