Family tree?

History, archaeology, historiography, peoples, and personalities of ancient Rome and the Mediterranean.

Moderator: Aldus Marius

Family tree?

Postby Curio Agelastus on Mon Jun 16, 2003 10:04 pm

Salvete omnes,

How would everyone here like to help me with a little research project I'm doing? I have decided that an excellent way to trace trends throughout the Res Publica would be to trace the history of its prominent families. For instance, why did the Horatii feature so much in the early Res Publica, but spend the rest of their time (As a friend mockingly suggested) farming in Uzbekistan? ;-)

What is the earliest mention of the Marii? Where were the Vipsanii during the early Republic?

The militarily renowned Valerians seem to have been lost their reputation to the Cornelii Scipiones in the middle Republic, and new men at the end. Why? Why did the Metelli, previously fairly obscure, suddenly become so important at the end of the Republic? I think a chart tracking the fortunes of a certain family would make very interesting reading.

Is anyone interested in this idea?

Bene valete,
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
Marcus Scribonius Curio Agelastus
Rector ColHis, Senator

Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
User avatar
Curio Agelastus
Senator
Senator
 
Posts: 470
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 9:38 pm

Postby Tiberius Dionysius Draco on Tue Jun 17, 2003 9:13 pm

Salve Curio,

the problem with family trees is the fact that the resources are quite limited. The main source that most family tree researchers use are the books collected by the church in which all the names of the persons who got married and those who got bapthized (I don't know if I wrote it correctly) are written down.

But because the church started doing this somewhere in the middle ages, it is very difficult to go further back in time to trace your bloodlines. There is the odd book that might talk about this subject, but most sources are either gone or very rare to find (mostly kept in a safe or something like it).

I think I once heard about a population count register that had been retrieved, but I don't know where that was.

But if you could convince me with how you would like to do this, I would gladly help you because I'd like to know if there were any Dionysian Romans back then :wink:

Vale bene,

Tiberius Dionysius Draco
User avatar
Tiberius Dionysius Draco
Curator
Curator
 
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2002 5:18 pm
Location: Belgica

Postby Curio Agelastus on Tue Jun 17, 2003 9:29 pm

Salve Tiberi,

I'm not suggesting conventional genealogical data, I'm considering the idea of tracing the history of a family. To use a simple example, we could know that the political career of the Marii lasted only 2 generations, through the great Gaius Marius and his son. However, who was the last mentioned Horatius in ancient sources? The last Valerius? (Of the Republic) And so forth. I'm suggesting using the ancient sources to compile, effectively, a history of a certain family.

I don't know aboutthe Dionysians, but I know that the Scribonii stretch back past the Curio who was killed in Africa by Juba, although how far would be something I'd like to find out.

So, what do you think? An interesting project, perhaps?

Bene vale,
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
Marcus Scribonius Curio Agelastus
Rector ColHis, Senator

Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
User avatar
Curio Agelastus
Senator
Senator
 
Posts: 470
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 9:38 pm

Postby Tiberius Dionysius Draco on Tue Jun 17, 2003 9:34 pm

Salve Curio,

ah, I got the wrong idea about your project back there, sorry.

And which family did you have in mind? It might be best to start with a family where we know a lot about, not?

Vale bene,

Tiberius Dionysius Draco
User avatar
Tiberius Dionysius Draco
Curator
Curator
 
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2002 5:18 pm
Location: Belgica

Postby Curio Agelastus on Tue Jun 17, 2003 9:41 pm

Salve,

Well, I hadn't thought that far ahead. :lol:

Hmm, it should probably be a family that were prominent during the late Republic rather than the early, because we'll have more sources. Shall we start with the Metelli? They're interesting because of the way they came onto the political scene so rapidly after being obscure for so long.

Bene vale,
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
Marcus Scribonius Curio Agelastus
Rector ColHis, Senator

Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
User avatar
Curio Agelastus
Senator
Senator
 
Posts: 470
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 9:38 pm

Postby Tiberius Dionysius Draco on Tue Jun 17, 2003 9:44 pm

Salve Curio,

hmm, to tell you the truth I've never heard of them before. But I'll do a quick search on the internet and let you know if I find anything interesting.

If anybody else wants to participate in this project, they're welcome!

Vale bene

Tiberius Dionysius Draco
User avatar
Tiberius Dionysius Draco
Curator
Curator
 
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2002 5:18 pm
Location: Belgica

Postby Curio Agelastus on Tue Jun 17, 2003 9:53 pm

Salve,

Really? Metellus Numidicus, great enemy of Marius? Metellus Pius, the general who propped Pompey up in Spain? And various other Metelli, such as Celer, Scipio Nasica, etc. I'll start looking also, and perhaps we'll be able to construct a family tree of sorts.

Bene vale,
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
Marcus Scribonius Curio Agelastus
Rector ColHis, Senator

Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
User avatar
Curio Agelastus
Senator
Senator
 
Posts: 470
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 9:38 pm

Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Tue Jun 17, 2003 10:18 pm

Metellus? Are we talking about Q Caecilius Metellus Celer, Clodia's husband? :p

I do like your idea Curio! Only I'm not much of a genealogist and, from the top of my head, know very little about the history of gentes. I do know that gentes such as Claudia and Iulia were very old, and that Tullia had Etruscan roots (Cicero prided himself on this). Gentes were also linked to political sympathies.

Vale!
Draco
Gn. Dionysius Draco Invictus
User avatar
Gnaeus Dionysius Draco
Curialis
Curialis
 
Posts: 1618
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2002 8:04 pm
Location: Belgica

Them Genses

Postby Aldus Marius on Tue Jun 17, 2003 11:31 pm

Avete amici...

I think I know what Curio's trying to describe here, and I like it. I used to do the same sort of thing for the Roman families in my role-playing games: a bare-bones scratch-sheet listing when's the first time we ever heard of that family, when's the last, and any prominent individuals in-between. You could even put it on an index card.

So far I have the Marii (of course), Valerii, Fulvii (the last recorded Fulvius was a minor admin assistant for one of the Antonine Emperors, IIRC--I'm not near my notes), Petronii, one branch of the Cornelii, and a few others. No Greeks, though. Everybody Knows Marius Has No Greek!
>({|;-P

In amicitia,
Aldus Marius Peregrinus.
User avatar
Aldus Marius
Curialis
Curialis
 
Posts: 2175
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 3:16 am
Location: At the Ballgame

Re: Family tree?

Postby Horatius Piscinus on Wed Jun 18, 2003 1:21 pm

Salve Scriboni

Marcus Scribonius Curio wrote:H For instance, why did the Horatii feature so much in the early Res Publica, but spend the rest of their time (As a friend mockingly suggested) farming in Uzbekistan? ;-)


WHAT??? You are talking about my actual ancestors, as some were Orazio, and Abruzzia is not a Roman Uzbekistan.

I was recently reading about Hortensia, daughter of the famed orator and a legal defense counsel renowned in her own right. It was interesting to whom all she was related, the Metelli among them, so I will dig into that a little more for you.

Vale
Moravious Horatianus Piscinus
M Horatius Piscinus

Sapere aude!
User avatar
Horatius Piscinus
Curialis
Curialis
 
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 7:39 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Postby Curio Agelastus on Wed Jun 18, 2003 9:23 pm

Salvete omnes,

Draco: Celer? Certainly! All the Caecili Metelli we can get. And indeed, any other families you have an interest in.

Mari: You've got the idea! With some info on any that we know anything about, of course. Could you dig out your notes?

Piscine: I do most humbly apologise for insulting your ancestors, and beg forgiveness. Yes, I would be very interested to hear about a female defense counsel, since I hadn't realised any existed at that time. And Piscine; have you changed your name as well? Horatianus? Last I heard, you were still Horatius.

If everyone here is agreeable, I'll compile everything we have into a computer-friendly format, and then we can have it posted on the website as an interesting research tool that could be added to as we researched more gentes and familia. **Curio waits expectantly for his latin to be corrected now that Draco has joined the conversation.** :-p

Bene valete,
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
Marcus Scribonius Curio Agelastus
Rector ColHis, Senator

Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
User avatar
Curio Agelastus
Senator
Senator
 
Posts: 470
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 9:38 pm

Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Wed Jun 18, 2003 9:31 pm

WE HAVE A WINNER!

Marcus Scribonius Curio wrote:**Curio waits expectantly for his latin to be corrected now that Draco has joined the conversation.** :-p


The plural of "familia" is "familiae".

:twisted:

Draco
Gn. Dionysius Draco Invictus
User avatar
Gnaeus Dionysius Draco
Curialis
Curialis
 
Posts: 1618
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2002 8:04 pm
Location: Belgica

Postby Curio Agelastus on Wed Jun 18, 2003 10:14 pm

**Curio considers that perhaps Draco's expert latin censorship is in fact a form of oppression that is being used by the Dionysian Empire. Realising the folly of thinking in a public forum, he hurries out.**

8)
Marcus Scribonius Curio Agelastus
Rector ColHis, Senator

Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
User avatar
Curio Agelastus
Senator
Senator
 
Posts: 470
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 9:38 pm

That Fulvius

Postby Aldus Marius on Thu Jun 19, 2003 3:07 am

Salvete iterum, amici...

About that last-of-the-Fulvii chap: I did check my notes last night, and turns out I am slightly mistaken... He was not a minor admin type but the Praetorian Prefect, and his Emperor was not an Antonine but Septimius Severus. Furthermore, he was a Fulvius only by adoption; perhaps the family was desperately bringing in new blood by then, as the line sputtered out...?

You may infer by this that my notes are still extant, and readily found when needed (unlike most other things at my house, which has for many years provided rich lessons in stratigraphy and excavation techniques for archaeology students in the summertime).

The notes are, as previously described, very casual, and jotted on the Gods' Own Collection of notebook-paper scraps. Sources include Who Was Who in Ancient Rome, an old Latin Cicero collection with some biographical matter included in the Latin-English dictionary, and of course anything I've tripped over on my way through various Penguin Classics. My range was greatly expanded on discovery and acquisition of a few annotated collections of Roman inscriptions--some from Pompeii and Herculaneum, some from Roman Britain, and some from all over.

An extraordinarily useful thing, if you can find one, is a biographical dictionary; this provides exactly the sort of info we're shooting for, but much more of it, and with ancient sources cited. There was a really old one (mid-1800's) in my college Library that contributed much.

It will take some time to get my goodies all together... Perhaps I will just bring in my fragments and enter them as found; the resulting archive will be the first time they've all appeared together in over a decade. Shall I do that here, or start another thread?

In amicitia et fide,
Aldus Marius Peregrinus.
User avatar
Aldus Marius
Curialis
Curialis
 
Posts: 2175
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 3:16 am
Location: At the Ballgame

Postby Anonymous on Thu Jun 19, 2003 12:29 pm

Chaírete gráµµatoi,

I cannot participate in this project, for I am in over my head at the Collegium Greacum, especially now beïng rector. But I would like to contribute to this discussion, not that I pretend to be someone important, but I am a former old history student (and maybe later former too :roll:) filology student. Now for the bit that might be interesting ...

About the sources ...

Tiberius Dionysius Draco wrote:the problem with family trees is the fact that the resources are quite limited. The main source that most family tree researchers use are the books collected by the church in which all the names of the persons who got married and those who got bapthized (I don't know if I wrote it correctly) are written down.


do you think this quoting is nice (en ni viserend - pardon my Dutch) Tiberi?

Anyway, from the top of my -for two years now wandering around universities- head. I think of family archives (very recoursefull!) encyclopedias (Realencyclopedie has more ties than you'ld like!), ... and I could go on so until I have my own personal Hermeunetic book. But I think that ain't necessairy, most of it would be allready researched.

hope to be helpful,

Héllenos
Anonymous
 

Postby Anonymous on Thu Jun 19, 2003 12:31 pm

hail to the preview! :roll:
Anonymous
 

Postby Tiberius Dionysius Draco on Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:21 pm

Salvete Romani,

I've found a very interesting link about Metellus on the internet, here it is:

http://www.bartleby.com/65/me/Metellus.html

It gives a lot of information about the whole family, which is perfect for this project, nonne?

And Hellenos, I don't quite understand what you are trying to say. Could explain to me what you what you wanted to say/ask?

Valete bene
Last edited by Tiberius Dionysius Draco on Thu Jun 19, 2003 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tiberius Dionysius Draco
User avatar
Tiberius Dionysius Draco
Curator
Curator
 
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2002 5:18 pm
Location: Belgica

Postby Anonymous on Thu Jun 19, 2003 2:31 pm

nevermind
Anonymous
 

Postby Curio Agelastus on Sat Jun 21, 2003 10:48 pm

Salvete omnes,

I'll try and post something from what we've got in the next few days. Many thanks for all your contributions!

Bene valete,
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
Marcus Scribonius Curio Agelastus
Rector ColHis, Senator

Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
User avatar
Curio Agelastus
Senator
Senator
 
Posts: 470
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 9:38 pm

Postby Marcus Pomponius Lupus on Sun Jun 22, 2003 11:43 am

Salvete,

While studying for the Latin exam of tomorrow I came across this Metellus Numidicus in one of Cicero's letters. Concerning the trial of the famous "Bona Dea" scandal against Publius Clodius, Cicero writes about his own testimony:

"Quae mihi res multo honorificentior visa est quam aut illa, cum iurare tui cives Xenocratem testimonium dicentem prohibuerunt, aut cum tabulas Metelli Numidici, cum eae, ut mos est, circumferrentur, nostri iudices inspicere noluerunt; multo haec, inquam nostra res est maior"

"And this case seems much more honorable to me than that one, in which your fellow citizens prohibited Xenocrates from swearing to the testimony he made, or when our judges refused to look into the book-keeping of Metellus Numidicus, when they were carried around, as was usual; this case of ours, I say, is much bigger."

This Metellus Numidicus had been charged with fraud, but thanks to his reputation (He almost defeated Jugurtha, the Numidian, hence the "Numidicus"), he wasn't convicted for anything.

As for the "your fellow citizens", this letter was sent to Atticus, a close friend of Cicero, so the "fellow citizens" refers to the Athenians.

Valete bene
Lupus

ps: I dare the Latin Inquisition to find anything wrong in there ! :lol:
Marcus Pomponius Lupus
Iurisconsultus
User avatar
Marcus Pomponius Lupus
Eques
Eques
 
Posts: 307
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2002 8:40 pm
Location: Belgica

Next

Return to Collegium Historicum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron