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When did the Roman Empire REALLY end ?

PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:52 am
by Valerius Claudius Iohanes
Salve, Sempronii Formose -

Good points, I think. I think that even if one can delineate an end point for the Roman Empire, it will be only a legalistic or technical point. When, for instance, did the Senate as a body disappear? Or the magistracies preserved by Augustus? The latter must have disappeared bit by bit in both Western and Eastern Empires, I suppose.

As to the Turkish claim, the only counter-argument that I can think of is that the Byzantines did not willingly become second-class citizens in the Turkish Empire, that it was a war of conquest that felled the last Byzantine emperor - much as if the Germans or Parthians had been the conquerors in place of the Turks.

But then, as so often in even the heyday of the Empire - or even earlier, in the later years of the Republic - might made right, in terms of who would rule. The Turks were by 1453 CE a European faction, as you point out. And then the "Latins" had already conquered and divided up the Empire, as foreigners, in 1261 CE.

It's an interesting question.

When did the Roman Empire REALLY end ?

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:48 am
by Valerius Claudius Iohanes
Salve iterum, Formose -

Thanks for correcting my dates - as you can see, I am not much a scholar (despite the role I've taken in our RPG)!

I agree about Caligula. From the feisty, truculent, but legalistic Tiberius to the irreverent and anti-reverent Caligula, is about as dramatic a change as one could get, and highlights the contrast between Augustus's principate and regular despotism.

As to Enrico Dandolo, Heavens! Another amazing figure of history, but I am low-brow enough to harbor a lot of partisan resentment for his role in directing Crusading zeal at the inheritors of the Roman heritage and the Augustan potestas! :? But it's nothing unusual in inter-state politics, of any era, I know, I know. :cry:

The joke is, on my mother's side, I myself am a Baldwin. :lol:

Vale bene.