PUBLIUS MUS FOR PRAETOR

This is the Comitia (members' council) of the Societas Via Romana. While guests may read this forum, only registered members of the SVR may post or vote here.

Moderators: Aldus Marius, Valerius Claudius Iohanes

PUBLIUS MUS FOR PRAETOR

Postby Publius Dionysius Mus on Thu Nov 14, 2002 10:26 pm

Publius Dionysius Mus consul senior Omnibus SPD

I hereby announce my candidature for the office of Praetor. This magistracy is at present very unclear: they have certain duties according to the Regula, but there are no fixed procedures or anything like that. I would like to change that. Together with my colleague, and in cooperation with the Senate and Comitia, I would like to set forth the procedures for the Praetores and their office.

Honours, powers and obligations of the Praetores, according to the Regula:

(b) To issue those edicta desirable to advance the mission and purposes of the Societas and set forth their principles for interpreting and administering this Regula and the decreta of the Societas in the process of rendering justice;


I will, in cooperation as mentioned above, issue such edicta to set clear and transparent procedures for the following duties of the Praetores (quoting again the Regula):


(c) To collegially remove a member from the fora if the majority of Aediles has requested so, in which case the Praetores must investigate the case and decide whether or not to remove the member from the fora, and for what period, by means of an arbitrium. If the person in question is a Praetor or if one of the two Praetores is away for an indefinite or long period of time, the other Praetor may take this decision alone.
(d) To collegially investigate and reverse a decision by the Censores to deny membership to an applicant, in which proceedings their decisions shall be immune from intercessio and provocatio.
(e) To render judgement in adjudications and enforce the same, including removal of membership, subject to the limitations imposed by intercessio and provocatio, a Consul, however, having no right of intercessio in his own or his colleague's case;



I firmly believe, however it has not yet been necessary, that we need a strong and clear legal system in case such special opportunities arise. It is NOT my intention to create a lot of bureaucracy in the SVR, but I only want to set some procedures.

I hope every member sees the necessity of such a system, and you can show this concern by giving me your vote in the upcoming elections.

PUBLIUS DIONYSIUS MUS FOR PRAETOR!!

Valete bene
Publius Dionysius Mus

No Spartiate soul left alive to tell
How bravely they fought
By treason they fell
(Ancient Rites - Thermopylae)
User avatar
Publius Dionysius Mus
Eques
Eques
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 11:55 pm
Location: Belgium

Postby Horatius Piscinus on Fri Nov 15, 2002 10:52 am

Moravius Piscinus Publio Dionysio SPD:

I am most interested to see this aspect of SVR be developed. It was a primary concern I had as consul and in my discussions with Florus at the time. Principles of law and procedures need to be established before their use would become needed.

A question: in recent amendations to the Regula, the office of tribunus was eliminated. How would you then propose to provide for the role of a tribunus to safegard the rights of members?

Vade in pacem deorum
M Horatius Piscinus

Sapere aude!
User avatar
Horatius Piscinus
Curialis
Curialis
 
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 7:39 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Postby Publius Dionysius Mus on Sat Nov 16, 2002 12:05 pm

Salve M Moravi Horati Piscine,

I firmly believe that the praetores should be responsible to maintain the rights of the members. Since we don't want to create too much bureaucracy in the SVR, it is very good that everything concerning law, rights, powers and other things in this direction come to the office of the praetores. These two magistrates, and their staff, are perfectly able to handle all such matters.

This being said, I will now answer your question more specifically. In our Regula we find many cases in which members already can appeal to the praetores if they are treated unjust. For these cases I would like, together with my colleague, set up the exact procedures. But the more specific tasks of the tribunes, monitoring the list to safeguard the members' rights, should IMO opinion go to all magistrates, especially consules and praetores, but also the aediles and censores. The consules, because of their task "To investigate the practices and functioning of the collegia for democracy, legality and responsibleness"; the praetores of course, since they have most of the power concerning justice; the aediles because of their task to "To maintain order and civility on the internet fora of the Societas" and the censores because of their task "To safeguard the public morality and honour through the collegial administering of notae of censure".

For now all of this is still very vague, and this is what I want to change as a praetor. An extensive but clear 'law system', so that we are prepared if ever anything may happen.

Vale bene
Publius Dionysius Mus

No Spartiate soul left alive to tell
How bravely they fought
By treason they fell
(Ancient Rites - Thermopylae)
User avatar
Publius Dionysius Mus
Eques
Eques
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 11:55 pm
Location: Belgium

Postby Horatius Piscinus on Sat Nov 16, 2002 11:08 pm

Salvete Mus et omnes candidati

I agree on what praetores "should be responsible to maintain." And one may point to the consules' veto power over the praetores as one safeguard, and potentially the open Comitia where any member may stand up in the role of a Tribunus could be another safeguard. When considering potential situations as might arise, there was in Roma antiqua no greater guarantor of libertas than the Tribuni plebis. Therefore in developing procedures for our own legal system I think we should not forget this aspect of the mos maiorum or the Roman legal system.

Considering what you had said, and some of my concerns:
1. We do not want to overburden ourselves with much bureaucracy, and for that reason we eliminated some of the elective offices provided in our earlier Regula. As first Consul in SVR I was one that advocated we do something of that nature. That unfortuantely included elimination of the Tribuni, but at the time it was an unnecessary and extraneous position.
2. As you pointed out our magistrates, while in office, have certain obligations to protect the rights of our members, to investigate complaints of injustice, illegality, or irresponsibility,. and to maintain order and civility within our societas.
3. I would also point out that upon expiration of their term of office, our magistrates should be familiar with and experienced in our institutional system, our procedures, and the principles upon which these are based. I would further point out that former magistrates would likely have a vested interest to guarantee those same principles and procedures are followed after they leave office.
4. Where a Tribunus would be required would be in a situation between a magistrate and an individual member. By implication this would mean a potential allegation of an abuse of authority. We would like to see that such a hypothetical situation never arise in SVR, but as you and I both know, such a situation has already once threatened to develop in our societas. The collective action of our magistrates and Senate prevented it. The purpose of having a Tribunus is to allow for an advocate on behalf of an individual member against the collective weight of our magistrates and Senate. As we both know from our experiences elsewhere, that possibility is always present in any societas.
5. Having an elective office of a Tribunus is not necessarily the best solution to problems that have not arisen. Nor would an elective officer necessarily have the experience and knowledge of our system and its procedures as might be required to best ensure the rights of an individual member.

I would therefore like to propose for your consideration as one of our current consules, and potentially as a praetor who will work on designing procedures for our legal system, the following as a working idea:


All former, present, and future praetores and consules, upon expiration of their terms of office would become tribuni, with certain rights and powers outlined in the procedures of our legal system that will facilitate their acting as advocates of others. Should these former magistrates gain election to any other office of SVR, other than within a collegium or provincia, they would temporarily lose their tribunician authority and powers until such time as they would no longer be magistrates of the central organization.


In effect this would mean that individuals familar with and experienced in our legal system would become a body of advocates, lawyers, or solicitors, by whatever name you wish to call them, who could be called upon by individual members should they wish to seek assistance in dealing with sitting magistrates. Because of their experience and the working relationship we may assume they have had with sitting magistrates, they would represent the best our system might allow for the defense of an individual member.

Politically it may prove interesting as it would mean that standing magistrates would have their actions subject to scrutiny by former magistrates in a formal way. This may lend itself to our developing a legal tradition that passes on from one administration to the next. Also there is the potential, should political parties eventually develop in SVR, that we would be able to formalize a means of contending over issues in a civil manner. What I am suggesting is that those who fail to gain re-election would still be given a role to play in our political system, one that might provide for healthy contention rather than become disruptive to our political process.

I make this suggestion only as an issue of consideration when our first praetores do begin work on developing procedures for our legal system. Stipulating in those procedures that we have legal council available to our members in the form of a Tribunus from among a few that they may select, what authority and powers the Tribunus may have, and what procedures he or she would need to follow, I would think could provide for a more orderly and civil manner of resolving problems that could arise. You may wish to read Cicero in De Legibus on what he thought of the value of having Tribuni plebis. I might have a different view than his rather cynical presentation, but do not dismiss entirely the experience of an advocate such as Cicero was, nor would I dismiss the experience of our present day legal systems.

Valete optime
Moravius Piscinus
M Horatius Piscinus

Sapere aude!
User avatar
Horatius Piscinus
Curialis
Curialis
 
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 7:39 am
Location: Ohio, USA

lawyers etc.

Postby Publius Dionysius Mus on Sun Nov 17, 2002 12:18 pm

Salve M Horati Moravi Piscine!

This is a very good idea! I would be glad to develop this, if I am elected.

Piscine, maybe you should consider running for praetor? It seems that this office would suit you very well! I would certainly be glad to work with you!

Vale bene
Publius Dionysius Mus

No Spartiate soul left alive to tell
How bravely they fought
By treason they fell
(Ancient Rites - Thermopylae)
User avatar
Publius Dionysius Mus
Eques
Eques
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 11:55 pm
Location: Belgium

Postby Horatius Piscinus on Sun Nov 17, 2002 4:13 pm

Salvete Mus et omnes

The issue of establishing an adjudication system for SVR arose before when I served as Consul suffectus. My term then being only three months, I was not able to develop it to completion. It is a matter of particular importance and interest of mine. I have been considering whether to run for office, as my previous imposition has now been resolved.

There will need be two parts to developing a legal system for SVR. Consul Mus is looking towards establishing procedures for the praetores to use. The other part will be developing principles of law by which to guide decisions. The latter part on principles was part of my discussions with former Consul Florus. I think I could best serve in this process by seeking office as consul once more, thereby having a continuity from the previous consular discussions. There is another matter concerning SVR' s future of which I also have an interest in pursuing, that would best be served by a consul. Then too, another member has already expressed an interest in seeking the office of praetor. So I will wait for one week, to see developments here and elsewhere before deciding whether to seek office and which office.

Valete optime
M. Moravius Horatius Piscinus
M Horatius Piscinus

Sapere aude!
User avatar
Horatius Piscinus
Curialis
Curialis
 
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 7:39 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Praetors

Postby Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Sun Nov 17, 2002 4:50 pm

Salve Mus et Piscine
The issue for further devoloping the praetorian office: powers, laws is a good thing and can only serve SVR. Mus is correct that SVR need a good to develop laws and a good legal system might be good for us. I guess that there might be some bureacracy but not that much. I stand behind Mus for further developing this area of SVR. But i think 2 Praetors might not be good enough to develop this area. Even with the scribae it might not be good enough but it will be a start. I don't know that much of any legal system but i know this: if you put two lawyers in a courtroom with no regulations or laws to guide them. Can you imagine what kind of mess it will be. It is an example i gave but it does point out that we need rules and laws. Also this office can one only hold for 1 year and i have my doubts if one year will be sufficient in this area to develop but it will bring some new blood and ideas on the table. That i am certain of.
vale
Sokarus Aurelius Orcus
Quintus Aurelius Orcus
Rector ColRel
Rogator
Princeps gentis Aureliae
User avatar
Quintus Aurelius Orcus
Senator
Senator
 
Posts: 937
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 5:05 pm
Location: Ghent, Belgica


Return to Comitia

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests