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Good idea

Postby Aldus Marius on Mon Jul 18, 2005 8:59 am

Salve Magister,

Good idea. I like it. A little unsettling, perhaps, as have been many things this unnerving weekend...but perhaps needed.

Thank you, Consul. Though this be "all [you] have", it may be what is required. Let it be sufficient!

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Postby Quintus Pomponius Atticus on Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:32 pm

Salve Coruncani et alii,

While I am certainly not against the idea of appointing a committee of 'decemviri legibus scribundis' to rewrite our regula (there are good reasons to cut back and/or rewrite large parts of it - again :wink: -) , I think there's something else we have to do first.

Before 'restyling' SVR, we first need to 'rethink' it. What way do we want to go ? Where are our priorities ? What do we all expect from SVR ? How do we want it to grow ? I suggest we all meditate upon these questions for some time, and voice our ideas in the "ideas for a better SVR" topic, so that a free and fruitful exchange of ideas and plans may take place there. In my opinion, it is sensible to appoint the aforementiond 'decemviri' only after SVR's membership has given their committee a more or less clear assignment.

Also, let us not exaggerate the present situation. One of our most prominent members has retired from office. That's ok, if that's what he wants to do. Perhaps (read : hopefully), if the rest of us succeed in getting SVR on track again, he will reconsider his position later. Some criticisms about SVR in general and the efforts of a number of its magistrates have been uttered in the discussion concerning his leave. That's ok as well : honest criticism is what a healthy organisation needs in order to function. 'Vitriolic posts' or personal attacks I for my part have not seen.

Valete optime,

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Postby Primus Aurelius Timavus on Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:16 pm

Salve Attice et alii,

Well, I'll start a discussion. I'm in favor of a minimalist organization.

Cleopatra and Coruncanus have written about how excited they were to discover SVR, and I suspect most of us shared that feeling. Here was a group of people who shared our love of Rome and who helped each other grow in their Romanitas through sharing with each other. The society was characterized by good fellowship rather than elitism and by welcoming rather than exclusion.

I joined back in the time of the mailing lists, and I had not heard of the OP before I learned of it from SVR discussions. I later visited OP and decided quickly that I didn't want any part of it. When I served on the Senate, I forcefully opposed any "negotiations" with OP. Why? Because I did not think that the kind of discussions that I saw there could add anything to the Societas, and I did not want to import all the bureaucratic infighting and other crap that I saw.

As I mentioned, I joined when SVR was a collection of mailing lists. I was a member for a few weeks without even knowing the existence of the Senate, the magistrates, and other offices. I just knew that there were rectors for the collegia that interested me. That was fine.

Since SVR has limited, albeit important, goals, it doesn't need an extensive admistration. We are not trying to create a virtual nation. We are just trying to enjoy our mutual interest.

I'd therefore like to suggest the following structure. Sodales would sign up as members of the particular collegia that interest them. The Sodales in each College would elect a Rector for two years. The Rectores would form the Senate and would appoint a single Consul. The Consul could be one of the Rectores or another individual chosen by them (in the latter case he would be an ex-officio member of the Senate). He would be the sole individual invested with auctoritas, and he would have the power to mete out any punishments, including permanent expulsion, as he sees fit. Yet he would serve at the pleasure of the Senate, his decrees could be overturned by the Senate, and any individual would have the right of provocatio to the Senate.

The Consul could appoint Censores, Aediles, Scriba, and even Praetores to assist him, but these offices would have no power in themselves (e.g. The Consul could appoint a Praetor to investigate an alleged offensive posting, but the Praetor could only present his findings to the Consul for his action without taking any action on his own.

This structure would eliminate the orders, familiae, gentes, provinces, and even the comitia (pace Mari). It would return the Societas to its stated aim of having the Collegia form the functional basis of the organization. Practically, it would have the effect of minimizing politics and bureaucracy. The Sodales could concentrate on what we love to do, talk Rome.

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Concilium

Postby Primus Aurelius Timavus on Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:00 pm

Salvete Sodales,

Who would serve on the Concilium decreed by Consul Coruncanius? They would be the five oldest members of SVR and the five highest posters. The earliest members of SVR who are still listed as active are:

Date Postings Name

5/1/01 1517 Gnaeus Dionysius Draco Invictus
5/1/01 301 Marcus Pomponius Lupus
5/1/01 402 Quintus Pomponius Atticus
5/7/01 550 Lucius Marius Peregrinus
6/5/01 227 Publius Dionysius Mus
6/7/01 519 Quintus Claudius Locatus Barbatus
6/26/01 978 Marcus Horatius Piscinus

These are all the sodales who joined's within two months of SVR founding. The next still-active member (Marcus Scribonius Curio 428 postings) joined in September. Incidentally, all seven of these early joiners, with the exception of Mus, would also qualify on number of postings.

So who would be the last three to join the Concilium based on number of postings? The answer is

12/9/01 861 Quintus Aurelius Orcus
9/17/01 428 Marcus Scribonius Curio
12/5/01 309 Tiberius Dionysius Draco

These ten individuals would form the Concilium under Consul Corucanius' definition.

Because some of the ten might be unable or unwilling to participate, it seemed sensible to list a few alternates based on postings. The next highest posters are:

278 Tiberius Coruncanius
220 Aulus Dionysius Mencius
195 Primus Aurelius Tergestus
158 Lucius Tyrrenus Garrulus
146 Quintus Valerius Scerio

Now, I did not have access to any of the Censors' data in compiling this list, and it is certainly possible that I have made errors. Please let us know if I missed anyone.

Coruncani, is this what you had in mind? If so, the next step would be a decree formally appointing these individuals to the Concilium.

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Small tweak...

Postby Aldus Marius on Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:46 am

Salve, Tergeste, et salvete omnes...

(We're pretty quiet for being in the middle of a crisis, nonne?) >({(:-)

* shudders, remembering how the OP handled 'crises', and how little it took to be considered one *

(See, we are civil. And orderly, and not prone to panic.)

Bene, mi Tergeste, I don't want to 'honest' myself out of a job, but...the Consul's decree only specified that the membership of the Concilium would (A) consist of at least five of the longest-serving members, and (B) be drawn from the ranks of the top ten posters. So a Sodalis could be in either or both categories and still not be appointed.

The Concilium's roster is anything but predetermined at this point. (That keeps it interesting to watch.) What your listing does accomplish is to let the Societas know who is eligible...which is a valuable service in itself.


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Postby Primus Aurelius Timavus on Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:52 pm

Salve mi Mari et salvete omnes,

I think the results may not change under either interpretation. Coruncanius wrote

A. To ensure a viable and acceptable quorum, the concilium should consist of at least five of the top ten members who have been at SVR the longest, this includes what remains of the founding membership; another five should be drawn from the top ten highest posting members based upon the membership list viewable in the forum.


Six of the early joiners that I listed are among the top ten posters in the Societas. Mus is the exception. If Mus is considered a founding member, he qualifies for the Concilium. If not, Coruncanius, the first alternate, joins the Concilium.

I don't know whether Coruncanius would like to serve on the Concilium that he decreed. I hope that he would, but if not, the next alternate if Mus is not considered a founding member would be....Mus!

All of this would be cleared up, and the Concilium could begin its work, with another decree by the Consul specifically naming the members of the Concilium. Coruncani, are we on the right track?

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Postby Quintus Pomponius Atticus on Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:05 pm

Perhaps we should first ask who would wish to be part of the concilium. Among the founding members, I'd be glad to join.

Valete,

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Statement of intent

Postby Aldus Marius on Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:26 pm

Salvete omnes...

I have not historically been interested in any kind of political or leadership position--quite the reverse; aside from my CollMil Rectorship (which was long on ideas and short on concrete plans), I have held no offices in the SVR, and have wanted none.

I recognize my limitations in this area. However, I am willing to serve on the Concilium if they will have me. This is important work to be done, more important than my customary political reluctance. I think I have something to contribute to the effort; and if nothing else, I bring the perspective of my years in the Societas, and in the circumstances from which it arose.

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Postby Primus Aurelius Timavus on Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:03 pm

Well, what about the rest of you decemviri (you're all viri I'm afraid)?
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Postby Horatius Piscinus on Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:26 am

Salvete sodales omnes

If it is the decision of the Comitia to proceed with a Concilium as Consul Cornucanius has suggested, then I will gladly serve as one of its members.

This matter is of great importance to all sodales as it is of the greatest improtance to the future of of our Societas. I do not think it should therefore be limited to any particular group of sodales, or exclude any sodales from discussions on reforming SVR. Indeed, the future of SVR rests with our newest members as much as with those of us who have been here the longest. We need the imput of all our sodales. If a Consilium is needed to keep discussions organized and moving forward, so be it. But let us hold those discussions here in the Comitia so that all who wish to participate may add their views as well.

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Postby Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:16 pm

Salvet

if it is the decision of the comitia to hold concilium, than I would be honored to be part of and to serve it.
valete

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Postby Curio Agelastus on Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:20 pm

I would be honoured to serve on the concilium were it to take place after 11 August, if I were to be asked, of course. If it happens before then, I will be unable to, since I will be travelling around Poland. I greatly regret that my access to a computer is so limited during this crucial time.

I hope you will be able to come up with a workable solution.

Bene valete,
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Postby Quintus Pomponius Atticus on Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:00 pm

Salvete,

As the highest magistrate and sole conditor still serving, I presume the role of officially convening and presiding the concilium will be my responsability.

I propose all candidates named earlier in Tergestus' posting let us know if they want to be part of the concilium or not by the July 31 , i.e. within a week. On monday the 1st of August, I will then announce the composition of the board and issue further guidelines and a time schedule for its working.

Valete,

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Postby Horatius Piscinus on Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:35 pm

Salvete Attice et sodales omnes

Very good. We shall await all others who wish to acknowledge their desire to serve on the Concilium, meet in accordance with the decree of Consul Cornucanius, under Praetor Quintus Pompeius Atticus as our chairperson, and convene on the kalendae Sextiliae.

Then too we may do as Curio has suggested and over this next week discuss our ideas on what we think SVR is currently. We may do so under the topic: "Retirement." Use topic "Ideas for a better SVR" as Atticus has done to discuss general ideas on organization for now. And get into details more in a topic that Atticus sets for the Concilium.

Valete optime
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Postby Primus Aurelius Timavus on Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:19 pm

I will serve as an alternate if not enough candidates are willing to serve on the Concilium.
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Postby Quintus Pomponius Atticus on Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:29 pm

Salvete omnes,

Currently, 9 members have accepted to serve in the concilium that will reform SVR. They are the following :

*Quintus Pomponius Atticus
*Lucius Marius Peregrinus
*Marcus Horatius Piscinus
*Primus Aurelius Tergestus
*Quintus Aurelius Orcus
*Marcus Scribonius Curio
*Gnaeus Dionysius Draco Invictus
*Marcus Pomponius Lupus
*Cleopatra Aelia

This means we still have 1 spot vacant. As announced before, eligible members (on 'who is eligible ?', see Tergestus' posting above) can forward their candidature until Sunday July 31.

You will also have noticed the presence of Cleopatra Aelia, who does not formally meet the requirements set in consul Coruncanius' edict, in the list. However, several future members of the concilium thought that, as a relatively new but active, ànd female member, she can present a 'surplus value' to the concilium. I hope no one will mind that we've slightly skipped legal technicalities to include her.

So, tell me sodales, where is that 1 future decemvir out there still looking for eternal glory ? :mrgreen:

Valete !

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Postby Q Valerius on Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:11 pm

I can be the 10th man, if needed be. Sorry for my brief absence, though, as I have moved and am temporarily without interenet connection. Aye, but the library is my friend, so whatever duties you will bestow I can handle.

Good to see some change going on here.

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Postby Q Valerius on Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:28 am

I am here, and alive, and I will take the seat, but shall allow Coruncanius to take over my seat if for whatever reason I am not able to fulfill the duties, but I don't believe anything should prohibit me from doing so at this time.

bene vobis,

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Postby Quintus Pomponius Atticus on Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:39 pm

Salvete,

As four out of ten future members (Curio, Lupus, Draco and myself) of the concilium will be absent during the next two weeks, I suggest we open the discussions on monday August the 15th, when all of us will be back.

As for the method of discussion, I've asked aedilis Ti. Dionysius to create a separate section under the 'res publica' forum with restricted access, so that the concilium members can work undisturbed.

On August the 15th, I'll open the concilium with a brief review of suggestions made in the "ideas for a better SVR" topic and a proposed schedule for the concilium's working.

Valete,

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MIA

Postby Aldus Marius on Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:55 am

Salvete amici...

Where is then-Consul Coruncanius' original Decretum that headed this topic?

I enter the Comitia to find this thread was started by 'Guest', and the original post is gone. That was rather an important post; the Consul singlehandedly disbanded the administration and the Senate, and called for the formation of the Concilium that adjourned recently. Whatever one's opinions of the Consul or his action, that post is absolutely critical to understanding what has been going on in the Societas for the last several months.

Is the Decretum archived anywhere else--say, on the Web site?

If not, I have a copy; should I repost it here?

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