Board-Ranks and Citizenship

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Board-Ranks and Citizenship

Postby Marcus Calidius Gracchus on Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:09 am

CLAVDIO CALIDIVS SALVTEM

SALVE AMICE, VT VALES?

Please forgive my ignorance if I ask an obvious question but I was wondering what the difference was between a SOCIVS (associate member/friend?) and SODALIS (full member?) in SVR? I seem to discern a difference in the level of access/ privileges ETC?

For example, my profile tells me I'm a SOCIVS but I also see that I am listed as a member, I think I've, perhaps, not read through things as thoroughly as I should have!

Anyway, I'm hoping that you can tell me what has probably been staring me in the face!

DI TE INCOLVMEM CVSTODIANT

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Socius, Sodalis

Postby Aldus Marius on Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:18 am

Salve, mi Calidi!

A Sodalis is a member of the Societas Via Romana, duly enrolled in the Album Sodalium on the Web site. If your name is up there, you are a Sodalis. Only an actual Sodalis can post in the Comitia.

BUT..."Socius" and "Sodalis" are also the names of our first two Board-ranks, those little titles (and icons) you get after making X number of posts. On the Board, you're a "Socius" if you've posted at least once, and a "Sodalis" after your first twenty posts. (See the discussion in the General section where I first proposed the new Board-Ranks.)

The Album shows your real membership status; the Board, only your virtual "rank" in the Forum. I was wondering if some folks might get confused; if you have a good idea about what to call those two ranks instead, I'm open to suggestions. >({|:-)

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Postby Marcus Calidius Gracchus on Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:11 am

MARIO CALIDIVS SAL.

SALVE AMICE,

PAX TIBI, FRATER, ATQVE GRATIAS TIBI AGO!

I hope I find you well?

I thank you for your explanation it all makes perfect sense to me now. Perhaps, the progression of one's virtual rank to reflect number of posts / activity could do with renaming in this we might consider use of CAPITE CENSI and as they have in NR?

As you know, CAPITE CENSI, literally meaning "those counted by head", was a term used in Ancient Rome to refer to the lowest class of citizens, people not of the nobility or middle classes. Funnily enough it was GAIVS MARIVS, as part of the Marian Reforms of 105 BC, established the capite censi allowing non-land owning Romans to be enlisted in the Roman legions.

Then one could progress to ASSIDVVS which means diligent, perpetual, incessant (reflective of post number say) the term also meant an ancient a wealthy man of higher class.

NR assign these terms to CIVES on the basis of whether they've paid taxes but we in SVR could do it on the basis of activity - number of posts, holding of public office etc. In this we would be more true to ROMA ANTIQVVA. Just a thought!

BENE VALE

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Board Ranks

Postby Valerius Claudius Iohanes on Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:00 pm

Salvete, amici -

As Marius knows, I'm not all that comfortable with the overlap and resulting vagueness of the term, Sodalis, designating both an SVR Society Member and also any non-member who posts a fair amount. It still rankles a bit in the logic department.

As to the term Assiduus, it makes perfect sense, yet it seems to have the same problem that Marius pointed out for my old suggestion of the term Civis -- it's too suggestive of NovaRoma, and could be cause for more rancor if they feel we're just "copying" them as a rival organization. It's a good, logical proposal -- but maybe not best.

I, for one, am going to go ruminate and do some vocabulary-hunting; maybe there's a synonym for Assiduus that could be used.

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Hmm...(not.)

Postby Aldus Marius on Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:40 pm

Salve iterum, mi Calidi!

I don't like the Nova Roman ranking system. It's too low-res for my taste. In a real Roman world, there would be peregrini (non-Citizen visitors); socii (non-Citizen allies); Latini (with some of the rights of Citizenship); and cives (Roman Citizens themselves). Nova Roma has none of these except Cives. Some years ago I proposed a Latin-rights status for contributing non-Cives; that went the way of almost everything else I did there, lost in the ruckus because of who I was, and hardly considered on its own merits.

Maybe it wasn't such a great idea, or maybe its time just hadn't come yet, and still hasn't. But from here it looks like the same old same old in NR: Some Citizens are held to be worth more than others, and if you're not a Citizen (meaning "Nova Roman Citizen") at all, you're not even worth considering. Why make up a term for something so far beneath notice? And, since they don't make fine-line distinctions between kinds of non-members, there's nothing left for them to classify except the members. So an assiduus has thrown money at the place, or had it thrown on his behalf (yes, it sometimes gets done by proxy); and those Novaromani who have only their hearts and minds and energies and skills to offer are referred to as "the Head Count". Ciphers. Census-fodder. Bragging-points: "Over 800 Citizens Served!" I find that setup both ahistorical and grossly offensive.

You mention Gaius Marius. To my mind, the greatness of my Distinguished Adopted Ancestor lay precisely in his ability to see the homeless, the landless, the urban poor and the unemployed as useful Citizens; as valuable resources; as more than marks on a talley-sheet. Having experienced all of the above hardships sometime in the last twenty years, I can vouch for the near-worship I was willing to lay on anyone who could see past the circumstances down to the worthwhile human being, and who would grant me an opportunity to prove that I, too, could serve.

So, here on my own turf, I have taken pains to avoid organisational snobbishness. Anyone with at least one post here is a Socius; but I actually created that rank to recognise our contributing non-members. We've had a few, and they've made a difference; and if we can give them something in return--even if it's just a little icon or "tag" over their avatars--maybe we'll see more of them, and they'll stay longer. All are valued; all are needed. The contrast to Nova Roma's philosophy could hardly be greater.

I'm also trying to get away from the whole ranking-by-post-count concept. We can't escape it entirely; that's just the way message-boards work. They track everyone's activity whether we ask them to or not. But I can also award the tags at will, which means they can stand for other kinds of work in the SVR besides haunting the Forum. I've decided that, even if someone is a "real" Sodalis, enrolled in the Album, they won't become a "Board-Sodalis" until they've shown us they're going to stick around for a while and participate--hence the 20-post threshold. An Eques is someone who's made 100 posts; but it's also the rank of a non-Magistrate who has contributed in other ways, regardless of post-count. Things like that are why, while we still have traditional Board-ranks by post-count, we also have the tags to show something a little closer to the member's overall status within the Society.

The "status" icons are explained in great (including technical) detail in the General-->New Board-Rank Proposal topic. My views on Nova Roma are all over the place, but I've expounded on the particular aspect mentioned here, their confusion between "non-Civis" and "non-Roman", most recently in Introductions-->Expats from Nova Roma. I consider both of these essential reading for anyone who'd like to help me fine-tune the concept. >({|:-)

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Board-Rank topic....

Postby Valerius Claudius Iohanes on Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:25 am

Salvete, et Calidii et Marii -

You know, when I was first on the message board here, it was an encouraging and - foolishly enough - a proud little thing when one day I noticed that I was now a "Legionary", a little title earned just from posting and from the extent of my participation. It was a welcoming thing, even though it was just window-dressing applied to a part of the message board that the Aediles couldn't shut off. Whatever. I think the board rank-mechanism does have value -- it lets you measure your participation, it reminds you you're part of things.

Now, if it were over at NR, people might start to "pull rank" on others or form rank-based factiones, but it doesn't seem that that will ever be a problem here. So, I say, let's tune it and tweak it and keep it.

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Update?

Postby Aldus Marius on Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:46 am

Salve, mi Iohanne, et Salvete omnes!

> I, for one, am going to go ruminate and do some vocabulary-hunting; maybe there's a synonym for Assiduus that could be used.


Amice, how goes the hunt? I really do want to get this working the way it's supposed to, and without confusing anyone too much. Sodalis; Civis; Assiduus; (?) Gotta be something out there...

Also, we do still have the military post-count ranks; for anybody but a Senator or Magistrate, they're right above the little status icon. It's a two-tier system, one for Board-rank and one for role in the Society. I didn't want to jettison the Legion-style ranks entirely; like you, I've enjoyed my Increments.

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'Civis' after all?

Postby Aldus Marius on Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:31 am

Salvete iterum, amici Romani...

I'm strongly tempted to call that second icon 'Civis' after all, Nova Roma be hanged. Any objections or alternate suggestions...?

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Postby Marcus Calidius Gracchus on Sun May 04, 2008 1:33 am

M•CALIDIVS•GRACCHVS• A•MARIO•PERIGRINO•S•P•D

SALVE!

S.V.B.E.E.V.!

Please forgive my absence and my apologies for the delay in responding, I have been away on business this last week!

May I strongly commend your constructive critique of the NOVA ROMA ranking system. I found myself reading your comments and muttering to myself in whole hearted agreement. As you correctly point out if the NR system were being truly consistent to the Republic of ROMA ANTIQVA, there would , indeed, be more categories of citizen. I personally found that the dichotomy between ASSIDVVS and CAPITE CENSI, which in reality came down to whether or not you had paid NR “taxes” (money), was stark. In real terms, non payment meant that you were not only officially excluded from public office but if you chose not to pay you very often ended up feeling somewhat less than those who had paid. NR would know doubt argue that no deliberate policy to make one feel so existed, or was operated, but one only needed to have seen the regular debates on the NR “Main list” on the subject or the publication of lists of “taxpayers”. For example, whilst I very much agree with, approve of the MON AVENTINVS project, and to that end I have taken an apartment. However, I could not help but notice that, although open to everyone, to own any of the best housing one must be a CIVIS and “taxpayer”of NR. In this virtual VRBS ostensibly open to ALL Romans, why should we in SVR be less entitled to any of the better housing? I think this simply another manifestation of NR’s negative ranking system and propensity towards privilege, cliques and favouritism. Were I a Tribune of the People I would seek to remedy this as I know TIBERIVS SEMPRONIVS GRACCHVS would have done!

Like you, noble MARIVS, I consciously chose the name of my distinguished adopted ancestors the GRACCHI, for similar reasons. As you know, brother, they too tried to help the homeless, the landless, the poor and the unemployed, they tried to empower the people and reform corrupt government and sadly paid with their lives. I hope, therefore, I may say with all modesty and sincerity, that it goes without saying that in politics, as in conviction, I am of the POPVLARES and not the OPTIMATES, of the people equal, free, valued and empowered and most decidedly not on the side of privilege, rank and the elitist social class of a powerful few.

In any event, to the matter hand, I would agree with your inclination, honourable MARIVS, to avail of the term/designation “CIVIS”, perhaps, as a ranking after SOCIVS? After all, NR do not have exclusive rights to use of that term, are we not as citizens of Rome entitled to lay equal claim to it? We do not have to dispense with the term “SODALIS” entirely that could be used, perhaps, to denote membership of one of the COLLEGIA? As an aside, and not to create any unnecessary debate, but I did just find myself wondering the other day how the ladies among us felt about the military designations - not that I am suggesting for a moment that they are not every bit as capable of filling or wanting to fulfill those roles. All that said and broadly speaking, I agree with honourable Iohannes the SVR system is a good one because it gives little encouragements/ rewards along the way so I don’t think we need to change it too much.

BENE VALE


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Points well-taken

Postby Aldus Marius on Sun May 04, 2008 8:19 am

Salve iterum, mi Calidi, et Salvete omnes!

I think I have a good name for the next-tag-after-Socius. How does CIVIS ROMANUS strike you?

For me, it calls us what we are: Romans, Citizens of Rome. For a particular subgroup of Civis, it's a reminder that there is Rome beyond the Nova; that we are, as I've been telling the more receptive among them for over a year now, "Citizens of a wider Rome".

As to the "zoning restrictions" on Mons Aventinus, I'll work on that.

It is very important to note that MA is not a Nova Roma project, but the outgrowth of conditor Triarius' research on the topography of the ancient City. OTOH, it is the brainchild of a Nova Roman citizen. That's not insinuating anything, it's just a cultural observation. (I am an anthropologist by training; this stuff fascinates me.) If Vitellius' experience has been anything like mine, Nova Roma may be the first Roman society he's ever been a part of, so of course it would leave an imprint. If you've only ever seen a thing done one way, that becomes, for you, the way to do it. (You could almost say most NRi don't know any better.) >({|;-)

But Triarius has been very receptive to outside input. I struck up a correspondence with him before I even moved in, and secured the right of non-Novaromani to occupy most any Hill we pleased. I told him that we, too, considered ourselves populus Romanus, some of us for years before Nova Roma ever saw daylight. I also said that having Romans from all corners rub elbows on every street would make for a more authentic experience.

I am now a sysop on MA. ("Ahh, so that's where Mari slips off to when we can't find him here!") I do not make policy for the site; that's the owner's job. But I am in a good position to make suggestions. The one I will make shortly will be to open the domi, if not the villae, to anybody who wants one. (Every street has domi, even the traditionally non-Citizen areas of Trans Tiberim and the Campus Martius.)

Why not the villae? Besides that possibly being a harder sell, I got to thinking: The occupants of the villae (and of the Capitoline and Palatine Hills) are universally Nova Roman assidui. They actually have paid for the privilege, and even I think that deserves a little extra consideration.

Given time, I'm certain there will be some divergence between Nova Roma and Mons Aventinus, and perhaps that will lead to them not being so tightly intertwined. I see NR's structure as a concrete slab that was used for a foundation. It's not the basement, but it's not the whole edifice either. That's something we, the residents, will build together out of whatever materials we've got handy, with whatever tools we can bring to bear.

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CIVES ROMANI SUMUS!

Postby Valerius Claudius Iohanes on Wed May 07, 2008 2:49 am

Salvete, Omnes -

Marii, I was getting ready to post along the same line as Calidus noster, that we simply use CIVIS and then point out that our Civitas is not a Nova Roman one, but a more catholic one, a "Roma Latior". But your suggestion that our cives be designated not simply a CIVIS but a CIVIS ROMANUS is all the better: at once it distinguishes our folk from the micronational Nova Romans, and simultaneously embraces them in "Roma Latior". It is just the ticket.

Maxime. This Curator is on board for that change.

Valete.
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Pome

Postby Aldus Marius on Wed May 07, 2008 5:53 am

"He drew a circle that shut me out--
Heretic, rebel, a thing to flout.
But Love and I had the wit to win:
We drew a circle that took him in."

-- Edwin Markham

>({|;-)
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Carminis Lineae Excerptae

Postby Valerius Claudius Iohanes on Fri May 09, 2008 12:51 am

Bene, bene. Eos etiam repugnantes complectare!

Illud pulchrum est carminculum - iam ridens consisto.

Vale.
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Postby Marcus Calidius Gracchus on Fri May 09, 2008 3:54 am

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SALVETE AMICI!

VTI ROGAS!

“PVLCHRVM EST BENE FACERE REI PVBLICÆ” - C. SALLVSTI CRISPI BELLVM CATILINÆ, DE CATILINÆ CONIVRATIONE III, I-V.

CVRATE VT VALEATIS OMNES!

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CIVIS VRBIS ROMÆ

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CIVIS ROMANVS SVM

Postby Marcus Calidius Gracchus on Sat May 10, 2008 1:05 am

M•CALIDIVS•GRACCHVS•A•MARIO•PEREGRINO•S•P•D

SALVE!

I agree "CIVIS ROMANVS" is an excellent designation, it conveys in a much wider sense that one is a citizen of Rome.

And I see honourable MARIVS you have the ear of TRIARIVS - this will prove invaluable in influencing a much wider understanding of Roman citizenship generally, particularly when it comes to the MONS AVENTINVS project. From what I know of TRIARIVS he is a true Roman so I would be quietly optimistic that, with a little gentle persuasion, he will eventually accept the need to broaden out the definition of CIVIS to encompass something much more than that for NR.

CIVIS ROMANVS SVM!

VALE

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Postby Marcus Tullius Ioannes on Sat May 10, 2008 2:19 pm

For my part, I think CIVIS ROMANUS is a fine idea. Then I would be able to say, with Paul of Tarsus, "civis romanus sum", though I hope to avoid his end.
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Meanwhile, back on the topic...<g>

Postby Aldus Marius on Mon May 12, 2008 4:48 am

Salvete omnes!

Lots of you scripsisti:


> For my part, I think CIVIS ROMANUS is a fine idea.


...vel simile.

You got it; enjoy!! >({|:-)

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Tangent

Postby Aldus Marius on Thu May 15, 2008 7:27 am

Salvete amici,

I've given the Mons Aventinus parts of the discussion their own "sticky" topic in the Comitia. ("Sticky" means it's always on top of the list of topics in that forum. Makes 'em easy to find.)

Vobis spero!
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